On Sep 13, 2021, Anjali appeared on Steven Cambian's Truthseekers podcast, and god help me I've transcribed it here.
Prior to arranging the interview, Steven said he had learned who "Wayne" is - the guy with cancer who met aliens on his mountain, became obsessed with digging to their underground base, and took Anjali to meet them on Jan 21, 2018 - and so Stephen asked Anjali onto his show to talk about a few controversies surrounding her experience.
According to what Steven told me, Anjali said she hadn't thought anyone would try looking for "Wayne", let alone find him. Why would anyone want to look for the man who made the most important discovery in human history?
Well, an email acquaintance of mine, James A. Conrad, did look. James wrote to me in early September claiming to have found the only builder named Wayne in the vicinity of Anjali's last known address who also owns a mountain. To be honest, I thought at first there was no way this could be the Wayne. Surely Anjali would've assigned a pseudonym to this notoriously private excavator extraordinaire?
I filled James in on everything already known about Wayne and his wife "Trisha". I figured one of the fancy houses adjoining the mountain property must belong to him, assuming Anjali's description of that fateful day was basically true. Sure enough, James's property searches found Wayne's home as well as more mountain acres and land parcels in the nearby town owned by him. Wayne developed (and continues to develop) much of the town in the 2000s.
I found newspaper articles and photos relating to Wayne's history in the town, and confirmed his wife's details through (often inaccurate) directory websites, Ancestry.com, and Facebook which seemed to indicate Wayne had been ill. (There are many family members living in the town, several with similar names, so it was necessary to sort out all the relationships - especially because Wayne's age and wife's name did not match what Anjali had said.)
In retrospect, everything lined up nicely and it seems like a simple puzzle to solve. But tracking down the evidence to support this identification took a few days.
Still, it could all be a coincidence, right?
I passed along our information to Steven Cambian who had joked on Twitter about calling construction companies in the area to ask if they owned a mountain. Not a joke, actually - he really did it. He now went ahead and called Wayne, whose reaction convinced him this was the Wayne and that was the mountain housing an alien base. Anjali confirmed it when she and Steven talked pre-interview. To be clear, at no time did Steven intend to reveal Wayne's identity and neither do I.
Where to from here? I am 100% certain there is no alien base, and 99.99% certain there will be no expedition to visit it. I've summarized my reasoning in this Twitter thread, following Anjali's comments to Steven in the interview. I believe Anjali vastly overstated her relationship with Wayne, and misinterpreted or misunderstood Wayne's role regarding tunnels and aliens and teleportation. They lost touch soon after that evening spent at his house in 2018, and only reconnected after she had already announced the expedition back to the base in July 2021. I doubt Wayne had any idea what she'd been up to online since March when she first came out on Reddit with her story - a story that places Wayne in a co-starring role. In the Sep 13 interview with Steven, Anjali was evasive and said only: "Yes, I have been in contact with him. And that’s really all that I’m happy to say about Wayne, really. I would just prefer not to discuss that too much."
Hours after the press conference in August, her partner Max said Wayne and Trisha were "on board" with the expedition.
I highly doubt this.
Anjali told Steven that Wayne would call off the expedition if his identity was revealed. I suspect the truth is closer to this: Wayne knew nothing of the expedition and will not be hosting a team of scientists on his property (which Anjali panic-tweeted is protected by armed guards) in search of aliens to the bemusement of his neighbors and the detriment of his reputation as a businessman.
Anjali has said she doesn't think the beings would lead her astray in this regard - the disclosure is on their terms, she claims, and everything is proceeding as it should. Coming back to reality for a moment: this expedition has multiple built-in points of failure, and it's only a matter of time to see which one Anjali chooses.
I've added two new pages to the Anjali section of the website:
I've also added to the Transcripts page Anjali's original Reddit post from March that started us on this transcendence journey, just for completion so it's included in any search for keywords you do on the page.
The Aerial Phenomenon Research Organization (APRO) field investigator on the scene of the Travis Walton case (Nov 5, 1975), Ray Jordan, has made a statement reflecting on his involvement. So today I'm reflecting on one deceptively tiny detail of the case that I think symbolizes a bigger problem.
Sometimes it takes 46 years for the full picture to emerge. But this particular red flag was waving in the faces of the investigators from the get-go.
Firstly, the bigger problem: when investigators think of themselves as scientists gathering evidence but act more like journalists hoping for a scoop, that's not how they're going to get closer to the truth.
Back in 1975, the different UFO investigative organizations apparently saw each other as rivals. Ray Jordan's statement unfortunately serves to emphasize this. Who has the biggest organization, who was first on the scene - these things aren't relevant to the truth. If the truth matters, then information sharing between researchers matters. Nutting out theories together matters. Welcoming skeptical viewpoints matters. This approach at least attempts to more closely mimic actual science.
For the Travis Walton case, the compass rose on a map matters. We'll get to that in a bit.
Before we look at the tiny detail that sent me on this rant, I'll address a couple of other issues Jordan raised.
Can we retire the polygraphs already?
In part, Jordan states that in interviewing witnesses and meeting them subsequently over the years, he "never saw anything that caused me to doubt the honesty of Walton or the witnesses or to think that it might be some sort of a hoax." He cites the polygraphs, like every true believer who doesn't understand why this is not evidence that supports their case.
Granting the arguable premise that polygraphs indicate truthfulness, the witnesses passed because they were telling the truth.
The polygraphs tell us that the witnesses didn't harm Travis, and did see a flying (actually hovering) object they couldn't identify. They don't tell us anything at all about whether Travis was abducted by aliens in a flying saucer.
Given the aforementioned insular information bubbles in UFO circles, it's possible Jordan never knew that only 3 months after the incident Ray Fowler (MUFON) wrote to Allen Hynek and posed the theory that two of the men hoaxed the other five with a huge flying saucer balloon. This of course explains why the witnesses were so credible - they really had seen a UFO, and they really did think Travis had vanished when they returned to search for him a few minutes later.
But it was MUFON's idea. I guess they didn't share it, or APRO didn't want to hear it.
This theory did not gain traction, overshadowed by Klass in the late 1970s who believed all seven men were lying. The two-hoaxed-five theory was revived by Karl Pflock, and now we have a ton of new supporting evidence as well, not to mention plot holes in the official story leaking like a sieve.
So, original investigators on the case who profess an opinion have a choice to make: stick with the 46-year-old story because they feel secure it was properly investigated at the time, or examine the new evidence that's since come to light (which Jordan inexplicably lumps together as "recent squabbling").
But here's the thing - in this case, there was that little red flag waving its little self at the time, and investigators ignored it.
On the case
On Saturday Nov 8th when Jordan arrived to investigate for APRO, there were (according to APRO Bulletin Nov 1975) three other organizations on the scene that same day: GSW, Center for UFO Studies, and MUFON. Four outfits were "on-site during the time that Walton was missing", and in fact Travis's book suggests GSW was first on the scene after Duane Walton called Bill Spaulding.
Regardless of who was first on the scene, and obviously I don't care, it's clear Jordan does care and I can't helping thinking this attitude is indicative of the aforementioned counterproductive rivalry.
Today Jordan wants us to know that "APRO was perhaps the largest civilian UFO investigation organization in the country (or perhaps the world)". Back in 1975, the APRO Bulletin also wanted us to know that "Ground Saucer Watch" - the name set off in derisive quote marks - was Spaulding's "own outfit". Insignificant.
While I would guess GSW's conclusions about UFOs in general were probably as silly as any other organization's, the fact is Spaulding was right in surmising this case was a hoax, although not because of the little red flag. APRO (via Jordan and then the Lorenzens) was wrong - Travis's stolen Heinlein spaceship adventure fooled 'em. Mike's emotional breakdowns fooled 'em. A complete lack of physical evidence fooled 'em.
But to get to the point of all this: while an original investigator on the case could examine new evidence so that their opinion comes across as informed, the little red flag isn't a new development. It was staring those investigators in the face on that Saturday afternoon in November as they poked around the "abduction site" looking for radiation and footprints and landing pad marks.
"Mr. Jordan interviewed each of the men and Rogers at the scene of the sighting," APRO Bulletin reported in Nov 1975. So Jordan had the piece of information in his notes. Spaulding of GSW had a similar piece of information in his notes, independently acquired. What a great idea it would've been for them to compare notes at this moment.
Let's quickly run through it: The guys were examining the "abduction site" about a quarter-mile south of the woodcutters' worksite in Turkey Springs. These locations are not mysteries. Nobody has disputed where they are. My website provides a ton of evidence to accurately locate them.
Witnesses told Jordan the UFO was seen in the northwest. Spaulding's incident report corroborates this - the truck was driving due west.
Map it out!
Maybe it's because I'm a visual person instead of a credulous UFO investigator but my first task if I went to an alleged UFO site with the witnesses would be to draw a map. To scale. With a compass rose.
Did anyone draw a map, while on the site, showing the worksite, the logging trail, the truck's approach, the UFO's position, the route of the truck's dash when Mike drove off, stopped, chased a camper trailer, and returned? There was a lot going on that night and... we've got nothing.
The investigators were working with bad information, that's true - they were misled by Mike Rogers to the wrong site - but had they actually pieced together what they'd been told, gotten over their jealousies long enough to compare notes and double-check, they would've realized their information created an impossible picture. They were told what appeared to be an obvious error or lie (though it was actually the truth, everything else was a lie) about the truck's direction of travel. Why was it allowed to stand unchallenged?
We have four UFO investigative organizations on the scene who somehow independently reconciled the impossibility that they were at the UFO site a few hundred yards south of the worksite, but that the truck was driving west and the UFO was seen ahead in the northwest to the witnesses' right.
Once we take into account the more recent admissions from Mike Rogers and John Goulette that they drove 5 to 15 minutes before seeing the UFO (not the 200 yards Jordan was either told or surmised), we can reconcile the accidentally accurate details in the APRO report. The true location of the UFO was a few miles due west along Rim Road and was indeed up a slight incline (the fire tower is at the highest point in the area). The approach is via a right-hand curve in the road, and since Travis was able to jump out of the moving truck we know Mike did slow down, no doubt to draw out the drama.
Look, I wouldn't expect an investigator to come up with the whole "fire tower 5 miles down the road" theory on the basis of a couple of incongruous compass directions. But with this red flag overlooked and buried (and it's not the only one), it boggles the mind that anyone could be patting themselves and their organization on the back for a job well done.
I did it so you don't have to, unless you already did in which case I sympathize: I listened to all Añjali's interviews over the past few weeks, and transcribed them to keep my fingers busy during the loñññg pauses.
The complete transcripts are here - all on one page to make searching for keywords easier. So, for example, to discover everything you ever wanted to know about transcending, CTRL+F transcend. Good luck finding instructions on how to transcend, because Añjali's not so keen on telling you - even though it's super important that you do.
Also included are her press conference, thanks to a dedicated Redditor, and Añjali's sort of but not really channeling from the Three and the Four on the galactic council who brought a message of caution and encouragement about separating human wheat from chaff.
The screencaps on the page are a selection of significant Añjali moments: