Anjali: interview with the blackmailer

"All this is unnecessary drama in our lives that YOU created"
​- Bryan's wife, Feb 2022

In a recent interview, Anjali announced there is no tunnel on the property she visited in January 2018. The platform she chose to relay this revelation (which she actually discovered 5 months ago) was Ryan Gordon, who in the past fabricated evidence to blackmail her and later promoted the false narrative that she was assaulted on the property. (Two years later she would characterize that planned interview, to the property owners, as a plan "from the beginning to allow Ryan to hang himself").

To overcome her natural revulsion toward such a man, Anjali must've had a strong motivation - especially as she involved her daughter. Why now, and why him? It's almost like she wants to get it on the record to pre-emptively save her own skin. More disturbing is her shift to blaming "Wayne" (Bryan) for "enticing" her home with a false story about aliens on his property. As we'll see, even though Anjali admits her memories of that day are unreliable, she's irrationally sticking with the "memory" of Bryan telling her an outrageous story of digging a 200-yard tunnel, 6 feet high, 5 feet wide, using explosives he doesn't know how to use, while battling cancer, in full few of his incurious neighbors in the town below, with miraculously vanishing rubble and no paper trail of the enormous expense.

The interview was packed with nonsense that went unchallenged because with Anjali it's always about the message, not the manipulations and lies she's used to bolster her delusion.

Background
In March 2021 Anjali (Angelia Schultz) told her story on Reddit of meeting "Wayne and Trisha" at a coffee shop in southern California in Jan 2018. They discussed their respective health issues and then Wayne invited her home to (she claims) meet aliens in an underground base, via a tunnel he had singlehandedly dug through the mountain in his backyard. In August that year, Anjali held a "press conference" in Washington DC asking for scientists with unspecified equipment to join her expedition back to the tunnel to bring the world "irrefutable evidence" of these higher beings.

In February 2022, Bryan ("Wayne") came forward with his side of the story: that he and Angelia took Rick Simpson oil at the coffee shop, and back home they briefly walked around the property, then an ambulance arrived (sent by Angelia's concerned daughter), after which they talked for about 6 hours until a friend picked her up. He says he never claimed to have dug a tunnel to an alien base, and that during their talks through the evening Angelia never mentioned having just met aliens in a tunnel.

The following annotated, slightly abbreviated transcript has my notes in bold (see the full transcript here). Anjali's daughter's name is redacted because I care about her more than her mother does. Even if Anjali doesn't believe Ryan faked evidence, that doesn't change the fact that HE TRIED TO BLACKMAIL HER and she fully recognized it at the time.

Narration: It all began in a quiet coffee shop in Southern California, where [Angelia Schultz] crossed paths with an ordinary-seeming couple named Wayne and Trisha. Ordinary, that is, until Wayne casually mentioned something extraordinary: a tunnel on his property that led to an underground alien base. After introducing Angelia to a powerful cannabis oil, he invited her to explore this hidden passage. 

Note: Wayne denies telling the story of a tunnel and alien base. He says aliens were discussed only in the context of seeing the occasional mysterious light on his mountain, and 1960s UFO sightings in the area. Curiously, the narration here doesn't mention Anjali's claim that Wayne dug the tunnel, which leads to a bizarre statement by Anjali later.

Q: What's the status of the tunnel today?
Anjali: Earlier this year, Wayne reached out to me and said that he wanted to talk. And we set up a call, and he invited me back to his property. And to make a long story short, to get it right out there, I returned to his property and there is no tunnel on his property that I could find anywhere.

Note: This is a sanitized version of what happened, placing Bryan in the active role of luring her back to visit the tunnel (which he has always denied exists). According to private messages shared with me before the couple signed an NDA, here's what happened: In April 2024 when Bryan told her his property was for sale (it had been on the market for a year), she immediately procured prospective buyers - her podcast company. She refused to name them until he signed an NDA (I have independently linked them to Savant Entertainment), nor was he shown the proof of funds he asked for. In May 2024 the interested party flew Anjali to California and they visited the property. Evidently, no tunnel was found.

(Eight months earlier, desperate to get back in their good graces and revisit the property, Anjali had tempted Wayne with a similar line by saying a team associated with Brandon Fugal, i.e. Beyond Skinwalker Ranch, was interested in investigating his property and "willing to ingest substances to reach the beings". Fugal has categorically denied this both publicly and privately.)

Q: If there's no tunnel on the property, what does this do to your experience?
Anjali: Well, I have to split it into two different things. There's my experience with Wayne and Trisha and the events of the day, and then there is my experience with the beings, okay. And over here with Wayne and Trisha, I have a lot of empty space. I apparently - there are hours that I cannot account for. I believed that I had a reliable accounting of my time for that day, but I have learned that I do not, at all.

Note: This is the first time Anjali has admitted her memory of events is unreliable. Previously she claimed her recall was perfect. Anjali does not explain why she now believes she has "a lot of empty space". Later she hints it's because of research into the timing of the ambulance visit, which arrived 5 hours earlier than she remembers, but she learned about that way back in January 2022. So, how long is Anjali claiming she's known her memories are faulty? She doesn't say.

Anjali: And I've learned that through various methods and various sources, including Wayne and Trisha themselves who also do not have a reliable account of that day. That story has changed many times in conversations, both in podcasts where Wayne himself has said that that I made it all up and nothing happened, to tapes in which he says that there is a cave on his property, strange things do happen on his property, and - which incidentally are very similar to the stories that he told me that day in the café, the coffee shop, that led me to want to go to a second location and see if there was indeed a tunnel that led to aliens.

Note: In addition to not answering the question, with this Gish gallop Anjali has activated Smear Campaign mode against the property owners. (To what end?)

• Between them, Bryan and his wife do have a full account of that day and Anjali provided no evidence they do not. I wrote their timeline here.
• It is false that Bryan said she "made it all up" - on the cited podcast [transcript] he says: “If it happened in her experience, that's her experience. I don't want to really take that away from her. If that's what she thinks happened then that's cool.” [Bryan on Truthseekers, Mar 12, 2022]
• The "cave" on his property is this small shallow alcove he dug under the patio (which her addled brain later remembered as the tunnel entrance with "beams... going into the side of the mountain"). He showed it to her on camera in Aug 2021. He told me he has since hacked a slightly larger alcove with the help of a friend. If Anjali (who has never been interested in caves on his property anyway, only tunnels) is saying he claimed there's a cave big enough to house aliens on his property, she needs to provide the evidence. Otherwise she's deliberately misrepresenting him.
• Bryan mentioned plans to dig tunnels for water (to "follow the squirrels") but hasn't really started.
• He has always talked about, and never denied, strange things happening on his property - which incidentally are NOT "very similar" to the story he does deny telling, about digging a tunnel to an alien base.

So where, exactly, did his story change?

Q: If there's no tunnel or cave or passageway, does that also mean there's no alien base there either?
Anjali: There is no entrance to such a facility that I could find on Wayne and Trisha's property. I have very clear memory of being inside of a tunnel, and so it's very distressing for me to find that there is not a tunnel on his property.

Note 1: Despite her distress, Anjali makes no effort to reconcile her memory with the lack of tunnel. Here's the reconciliation to alleviate her distress:

• She was high ("Does that chick remember how fucked up she was?" - Bryan's friend who witnessed Anjali's bizarre behavior).
• She has memory gaps (clearly due to ingesting potent THC and possibly also due to reactions with prescription medications including Adderall).
• Her imagination filled in the memory gaps over the next two years while she reflected and meditated on the day. The evidence for this: She didn't mention the tunnel adventure that night or the next morning or in texts for days afterwards, so it seems the "memory" didn't exist at the time. Even by her own account she "forgot" about it by next morning then remembered, forgot, and remembered multiple times, and only reliably remembered it two years afterwards.

Like many experiencers, the disappointing discovery that an amazing NHI experience is due to something mundane is hard to take. Many never manage to access their rational brain to accept it, even if it means living with logical contradictions.

Note 2: Anjali fails to say whether she believes there used to be a tunnel to the alien base (i.e. in 2018), neatly avoiding the crux of her entire narrative.

Q: You're saying there's no tunnel, are you still hopeful that maybe you just missed it somehow?
Anjali: I do not believe that there is a tunnel on his property that he hasn't dug himself.

Note 1: This statement is a bizarre non sequitur, perhaps a result of terrible editing (an unfortunate feature of the entire interview). Parsing the double negative, she's suggesting there could be a tunnel, and if so, Bryan dug it. But... that's what she's always said: that he dug a tunnel to the alien base (albeit one she can no longer find). Which negates the entire point of the interview. #makeitmakesense

And again, Bryan has always denied digging a tunnel resembling anything like what Anjali described, or anything at all that qualifies as a tunnel.

Note 2: It's odd Anjali doesn't bring up the possibility the entrance is hidden by a hologram. In the past she has been adamant that such entrances are hidden by holograms. But no, on this visit she was able to determine there were no tunnels and no holographically hidden tunnels.

Q: [re. the "other" Wayne who appeared to match the description of Anjali's Wayne] This man has a tunnel on his property – he had the permit to dig it. 

Note: Ryan can't keep track of his own bullshit here. The other Wayne said (in fake texts authored by Ryan): “There is no tunnel.”

Anjali: I thought there's absolutely no way that there is this other place that matches my description, you know, when I was trying to turn everyone away from Wayne and Trisha's property so that they wouldn't continue to harass them, as they were claiming they were being harassed.

Note 1: Anjali is muddling the timeline here and lying to boot. No, she didn't describe a fake Wayne in response to the real couple being harassed. She put out the false information on Sep 9, 2021, more than a month before the person who turned out to be the real Wayne came on our radar (Oct 17) due to his wife on Twitter following Anjali along with some skeptical accounts investigating the case. He wasn't being harassed - nobody else knew of his existence.

Note 2: Her tweets were posted after three weeks of total silence from the couple, following her presser. They hadn't told her they were being harassed - they told her anything at all since watching the presser (which she sent them 3 days after it happened).

Note 3: While Bryan and his wife feared being discovered by "UFO nuts" because of the clues Anjali gave, they have never said they were being harassed - except by her! To this day, nobody has called them, nobody has come to their property, nobody has harassed them. (Because they are not harboring aliens, duh.)

Anjali: I made up something that I felt would be like almost a complete opposite, other than having a tunnel, okay? And so I included details of like a national forest, essentially, a very large forested piece of property with security cameras --

Note: While the above could be put down to Anjali's abysmal memory and disregard for facts and timelines, back in Sep 2021 she deliberately muddled the timeline for the property owners to make herself the hero. See this Twitter thread.

Q: The person who had done all that research, [let’s] just say for what it is, she goes by the pseudonym Charlie Wiser. And that information was given to me.

Note: In Feb 2022, Anjali lied to Bryan and his wife that I'd worked with Ryan Gordon to find Wayne. Going along for the ride, here Ryan uses the passive voice to avoid calling her out on it.

Q: As many folks know, she worked with me on a different story for a brief amount of time.

Note: Quite possibly the funniest part of the interview, for me. I worked with Ryan for a "brief" amount of time? This is true. It was three weeks (on the Travis Walton case in July 2021) from the day we met online to the day I stopped all communication with him because he bullied me and exploded like a toddler. But during his reconciliation call with Anjali in March 2022, which she later released in part, he told her this (along with a string of other lies about me, invented for his own amusement):

"I would talk to her on the phone probably 2 to 3 hours a day, nearly every day of the week, for months on end. I would say of anybody in ufology I know her the best because we spent so much time working together." 

Q: And I'm very okay with saying she's a great researcher. Her report I wanna say is near 10 pages long.

Note: 20 pages. YW.

Q: And I was in Southern California doing something unrelated to all of this, and thought, well let's just swing by, let's just, let's call this guy up and let's see. I'm here, why not.

Note: Ryan is referring to visiting wrongWayne and paying him $1000 for an on-camera interview (now at a secure location in Scottsdale AZ) and to fly drones over his property looking for tunnels - none of which happened in this spacetime dimension.

Q: It's interesting that after I would come public with that information, this same character Charlie Wiser would go on a mission against me saying that I was a fraud by following her own research. But that's a whole ‘nother conversation.

Note: Actually, what's more interesting is that I didn't go after Ryan for following my research leading to  wrongWayne. I went after him for fabricating evidence (which he then used in his attempted blackmail scheme on Anjali). Sociopathic liars don't see the difference.

Q: Let's move on from her, she's really not worth much if we're honest.

Note 1: THEN WHY DID YOU MENTION MY NAME AT ALL, YOU DOLT?!! Charlie Wiser, wrongWayne, and Ryan Gordon have nothing whatsoever to do with the topic of this interview. I will flatter Ryan by suggesting it's all part of his master plan to implode Ryanjali Mk II in spectacular fashion. One can only hope. Well done for including the daughter. And thanks for the compliments I guess, but did you forget that time you attempted to bully me and I called your pathetic bluff? And then you created weird fantasies about me to make yourself look important in Anjali's eyes during the halcyon days (all 18 of them) when Ryanjali Mk I was a thing? Dolt.

Note 2: Introducing Anjali, champion of Charlie Wiser:

Anjali: Well I actually, on that note I disagree. I think that - I'm very thankful, first of all, for the research that she found.

Note: Anjali is presumably referring to the ambulance call time that has made her realize she has memory holes back in Jan 2022 but for some reason only now does she see the significance. For the record, while it was my idea to find the 911 call and I did confirm more precise times for the initial call and the sheriff and ambulance attending and leaving, it wasn't me who initially tracked down the call. It was a mutual friend - to whom Anjali gave Bryan's address (while it was still not known by anyone that he was "Wayne"). Anjali thought the call time would provide physical evidence to support her story but it destroyed it, forcing her to waffle about her experience happening on another timeline or some such bullshit. Which Wayne "enticed" you, Anjali? The one in the other timeline? Then STFU about the Wayne in this timeline.

Anjali: I'm very displeased with a lot of things, of course. I feel like it's been at times a very, a very toxic environment, and I can't seem to normalize a relationship between us. I have offered to talk. 

Note: Anjali laments that I won't call her. The woman who has threatened to sue me twice and who spread the never-retracted falsehoods that I:

• said "Wayne" assaulted her or (alt version) made a graphic depicting her having an orgy with aliens
• contacted her ex calling her a drug-addicted nutjob and unfit mother, causing him to prevent their son visiting for Christmas
• probably drove someone to suicide
• am a DC lobbyist LARPing as an Aussie grandma (ffs)

...is lamenting that I won't call her to normalize our relationship.

Anjali: But she is an excellent researcher and, you know, I would love to see her use her talents, you know, in promising and positive ways.  
​
Note: This is called lovebombing, a tactic of narcissists.

Q: This initial account happened in January of 2018. You're returning now for the second time, in the early part of 2024.
Anjali: Yes, in Spring.

Q: Why did it take you so long to get back to that property?
Anjali: Well it depends. I mean, Wayne gave me several different reasons. One were some legal concerns about liability, which I felt that we could really circumvent that by having everybody do, you know, a non-disclosure agreement and to release them of any kind of liability. But they didn't feel that way.

Note: Anjali's sheer entitlement is staggering. She dismisses the idea that the couple might be anxious about people injuring themselves while clambering around on their mountain. Oh, we'll just have them sign something! Ryan Gordon interrupts Anjali and goes off on a tangent, so we never hear the other reasons. It's worth noting though that her response does not answer the question. Liability concerns were why Bryan denied permission for the expedition. They are not the reason it took Anjali "so long to get back to that property."

Let's not forget how horrifically Anjali treated the property owners:

"[Y]ou must have had the wrong idea about who you brought to your home, if you think I am just going to go away after what happened to me. You knew I was intel. I would NEVER just go away." - Anjali, Nov 2021

No wonder they weren't interested in speaking to her, let alone playing host to her again. That's why it took so long for her to get back to the property.

Q: Let me ask you this, before we get too far forward here. When your story, or when you came out with your experience initially, you were questioned pretty rigorously on another channel [Steven Cambian's Truthseekers] - had you ever - did your experience here involve drugs? And you emphatically said no.
Anjali: That's right.

Q: Now we're talking about cannabis [note: "powerful" cannabis], which - walk me through why you initially would deny anything dealing with drugs, and now we're speaking very freely about what some may consider drugs, you're taking drugs.
Anjali: Right, well first of all, the question that was posed to me on that show was: “Were you on drugs?” okay. And I don't consider cannabis to be drugs. It's not just like a personal consideration. I was coming from Southern California, where rec cannabis and medical cannabis are widespread. You can get just about any kind of cannabis product there, and we don't talk about it like it's a drug. We talk about it like it's medicine - having a medical marijuana card, I used it for medicine. But I wasn't trying to mince words. It was really I think mostly a cultural problem, and a social misunderstanding, because when I was asked if I was on drugs, I said no. But I was always clear that I had cannabis in my system and I'm pretty sure that I’d even said a few times that I had had cannabis oil that day, okay. So when somebody asked me if I was on drugs, I'm thinking things - you know, being in Southern California, I'm thinking like heroin fentanyl, opioid use, you know, those types of things. I'm not thinking about cannabis, especially, you know, for medicinal purpose.

Note: Here we get to the "reframing" portion of the program where Anjali rewrites history to disguise the fact she hid, for 8 months, being high on the day she met aliens. Cambian never asked “Were you on drugs?” so the idea she interpreted his question as "opioids" is D.O.A. He asked: "Have you ever done a hallucinogenic drug?" (To which she replied, synthetic mushroom, once.) Anjali deflects here with a lecture on cannabis, and why medicines aren't drugs(!!), but the issue she refuses to address is that she repeatedly said, when asked about any drugs on Reddit and Twitter, that she had taken no drugs, she wasn't drugged, there were no drugs in her system. She wanted to assure us that she was entirely clear-headed that day.

Rick Simpson oil, which she had never taken before, is 90% THC. It is psychoactive and "does alter your mind" according to Bryan - a very experienced user for the medical benefits the drug provides. (Additionally, Anjali was taking several prescription medications.) "We weren't sober," Bryan told me. His wife described Anjali's bizarre behavior, and their friend described her as "fucked up".

When Anjali says "I was always clear that I had cannabis in my system", this is a bald-faced lie. The very first time she mentioned cannabis was 8 months after telling her story, and after repeated questioning about drugs that she deflected or lied about. And she only mentioned it then, on Nov 4, 2021, because she feared being exposed: 2 days earlier Bryan, annoyed that Anjali was talking about getting on to his land some other way since the expedition was canceled, had texted her that he might go public about her being high that day.

Anjali denied all drug use until forced to admit it, and since then has consistently implied that she's immune to all mental effects of potent THC. (I am not suggesting she hallucinated aliens on THC. To repeat what I wrote above, because Anjali persists in throwing around the strawman about cannabis not causing hallucinations: The drug provably distorted her perception of time and visuals. She forgot the "experience" immediately and even she now admits she has memory holes. In the months and years that followed, her imagination reconstructed false memories to fill those holes. It seems unlikely she'll ever be able to come to terms with that reality, which is her own cross to bear, but casting Bryan as the bad guy is unconscionable.)

Q: What do you say to the people who will undoubtedly say, “She was just high, she's been milking is still for coming on seven years due to getting high at some guy's house.” What do you say?
Anjali: Please take a walk in my shoes here. You know, I have the professional history of being an intelligence officer. That's what brought me to Southern California. I had never ever gone home with anyone in their lives. I do feel like I was enticed by a story that was untrue, now, okay, okay? And I feel like I did the best that I could, and that given my history of experiences with the phenomena and with non-human intelligence, that it wasn't beyond my capability to believe my experience. It was an analysis that led me to, “Yeah this had to have happened.” Because I truly believed that. 

Note: Anjali is halfway to admitting the entire experience was a figment of her imagination, though she can't seem to say the words. Instead, she blames Bryan for enticing her and fails to consider that since her memories of the day are unreliable, perhaps she remembers wrongly that he told her he dug an impossible tunnel to an alien base.

Anjali: And the messages that I have received from non-human intelligence, their messages are so beautiful and they're so loving, and they absolutely had to be shared. I literally felt compelled, you know. My ex-partner, he drove me all the way across the country to deliver this message publicly. That's how much in heart, mind, and spirit, I am attached to this experience and to the messages that I received. So I guess I would say, you know, go easy on me. But you don't have to, you know, just don't send me mean messages. Try to put yourself in my shoes and see the courage that it took not only to go to the Lincoln Memorial, but the courage that it continues to take to sit here in front of you now and tell you that what I understood is not the physical reality that I can bring to you. 

Note: Anjali's current message from NHI is that the world is going to end in 2027 in a cataclysm, an extinction-level event, and an ice age. Anjali brings along her daughter to repeat unironically that this message is "beautiful". Anjali removes herself from any responsibility for bringing a bullshit story to the ufology community by saying she felt compelled. Compelled to tell her story and announce an expedition before she was even back in touch with the property owners, and to drive to DC to announce an expedition without their knowledge until the day before when she told them (did not ask) she was bringing a team to their land and then planned an expedition without involving them or even telling them the planned date for the event. All during a global pandemic. She offers no logical explanation for the no-tunnel revelation in this interview, and doesn't acknowledge that the skeptics were right all along about (1) her being in an altered state of mind and (2) there being no tunnel.

Q: You look back at the last several years, of course it's always everything in hindsight is 20:20. If you could do this all again, what would you - or would you do anything differently?
Anjali: There are several things that I would do differently. One is that I would have attempted to go back to the property before making any kind of public announcement - not about my experience, I would still have come forward about my experience, but about there being an expedition. I would have not said anything like that, I would choose now to go to the property first and then share the results afterwards. I would be much more private and I definitely would have given lesser details regarding all of the locations and individuals involved. I didn't understand the voracity of UFO Twitter - I mean UFO Twitter is like a dog with a bone. You – wow, wow, I had no idea what I was stepping into.

Note: Anjali is just now coming to the realization that many of us were saying at the time, and we were vilified for it: that she should've returned to confirm the unlikely existence of an alien base inside an impossible tunnel before making a circus of the expedition. Instead she chose to raise people's hopes by feeding them an outrageous story without evidence, then dashing their dreams and making many of them feel like idiots for trusting her. (Lue Elizondo, of all people, did acknowledge it.)

Q: Are you familiar with your mother having any other experiences with extraterrestrials, the beings, outside of this situation in Southern California?
Anjali's daughter: Absolutely. Before my mom met Wayne and Trisha, it was a long history of having experiences with either extraterrestrials or these beings. When she was a small child there were many accounts of a UFO sighting in her neighborhood that she lived in, and she remembers being taken into a craft as she accounted to me. And besides that, she's had what she calls conscious communication with beings in the past, before this experience with Wayne and Trisha.

Note: What's odd about this answer is Anjali's daughter doesn't give her account of her mom's first conscious communication incident, in Dec 2017, for which she was also present (watching Netflix, remember?). The other incidents, Anjali has already talked about publicly. What we don't have is the eyewitness's perspective of Anjali meeting the holographic lavender being for the first time, where Anjali says she was describing the being to her daughter, who couldn't see it. What a missed opportunity.

Or is it the unfortunate case that her daughter's testimony would contradict Anjali's account?

Q: At this point, the tunnel is done. The tunnel is old news. The base is old news. We're done with the tunnel.
Anjali: We are finished with a tunnel.

Note: Anjali fails to clarify whether she believes there used to be a tunnel leading to an alien base in Jan 2018. If she's saying there was never a tunnel there, how does she reconcile this with her memory of it? She doesn't even try. Instead, she blames Bryan for enticing her home (for what purpose?) with a false story - a story he says he definitely never told her. Anjali accepts her memory is faulty, that she can't account for the entire day, yet she refuses to consider her memory of Bryan telling her about the tunnel is crucially in error. It's an interesting exercise to speculate on why that is. 

In February 2022, Anjali told the couple: "Something VERY PROFOUND happened to me at YOUR home". If there's no tunnel, did nothing profound happen after all?