FIRST ON THE SCENE |
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ADULT TESTIMONIES |
Note that despite reports claiming 62 children witnessed the sighting, this comes from the number of drawings that were made (some of which are clearly imaginative). Hind interviewed 10 to 12 children. In December, Mack will interview 12 - with a large overlap with those Hind interviewed. In between, two TV reporters interviewed a few more. We simply don't have early testimony from most of the alleged witnesses.
I wrote to Colin Mackie in June 2022 for his perspective but have not received a response. In her book, Hind writes:
...when I last spoke to Colin Mackie, the headmaster, in January of 1996, he said, 'So many of the children have been traumatised by the event that I have decided to close the book on the whole story... It all happened over 16 months ago.' [Hind, UFOs Over Africa, 1996, p. 235]
The 1996 interview with Dutch TV appears to have taken place around the time of this decision, as the time elapsed is referred to as one-and-a-half years. Then, German UFO researcher Michael Hesseman interviewed the children in 1997.
Screenshots of each child are included to make it easier to slot any new footage that surfaces into the correct interview.
I wrote to Colin Mackie in June 2022 for his perspective but have not received a response. In her book, Hind writes:
...when I last spoke to Colin Mackie, the headmaster, in January of 1996, he said, 'So many of the children have been traumatised by the event that I have decided to close the book on the whole story... It all happened over 16 months ago.' [Hind, UFOs Over Africa, 1996, p. 235]
The 1996 interview with Dutch TV appears to have taken place around the time of this decision, as the time elapsed is referred to as one-and-a-half years. Then, German UFO researcher Michael Hesseman interviewed the children in 1997.
Screenshots of each child are included to make it easier to slot any new footage that surfaces into the correct interview.
Hind's weekend interviews
Sat-Sun, Sep 17-18, 1994
In her book UFOs Over Africa (1996) we have Hind's recollections of the conversations she had with the mother in the tuckshop (Alyson Kirkman) and some of the children during the weekend. It's not possible to know how accurate these accounts are, and it is unknown whether these were in-person interviews or phone conversations.
Alyson is quoted as saying: "Luke, ran into the shop shouting that a UFO had landed just beyond the school grounds. He said, 'There's a little man running around in a one-piece suit with a band around his head. Come quickly and see.'" (p. 222)
Hind spoke to Alyson's daughter Fifi (age 10) and indirectly quotes her as saying she and her friends saw "a small 'white-looking' object land about 100 metres from where they were. (Later estimates said it was 200 metres away)."
In her book UFOs Over Africa (1996) we have Hind's recollections of the conversations she had with the mother in the tuckshop (Alyson Kirkman) and some of the children during the weekend. It's not possible to know how accurate these accounts are, and it is unknown whether these were in-person interviews or phone conversations.
Alyson is quoted as saying: "Luke, ran into the shop shouting that a UFO had landed just beyond the school grounds. He said, 'There's a little man running around in a one-piece suit with a band around his head. Come quickly and see.'" (p. 222)
Hind spoke to Alyson's daughter Fifi (age 10) and indirectly quotes her as saying she and her friends saw "a small 'white-looking' object land about 100 metres from where they were. (Later estimates said it was 200 metres away)."
The sighting was 200 meters from the children, and partially hidden amid long grass and trees
Hind's book continues: "It then came closer and had 'a sort of golden colour about it. It glowed. Some of the children became hysterical.' Other children visiting Fifi at the time told me that they saw more than one disc-like object coming in to land (or so they thought) in the rough bush adjacent to the playground. The light from the object(s) was so bright, it was difficult to see it properly, but they thought there was one large object and 3 or 4 smaller ones." (p. 222)
Barry is indirectly quoted from their phone conversation: "he had first seen 3 objects flying over with flashing red lights... suddenly they would disappear and reappear somewhere else almost instantaneously. This happened 3 times, and then they came and landed near some gum trees."
Notes:
Barry is indirectly quoted from their phone conversation: "he had first seen 3 objects flying over with flashing red lights... suddenly they would disappear and reappear somewhere else almost instantaneously. This happened 3 times, and then they came and landed near some gum trees."
Notes:
- Only one occupant was seen and the band around his head is not mentioned again
- Unclear where Fifi saw the UFO(s) - in the air or already on/near the ground?
- Barry's testimony doesn't mention power lines, but the report of UFOs approaching the school along the power lines was later assigned by Gunter Hofer to Thursday's sighting. Friday's incident involved an already landed UFO.
Interviews with Tim Leach, BBC
Monday Sep 19, 1994
Tim Leach interviewed three children (Guy, Kayleigh, Oriana) as well as Mr Colin Mackie (headmaster). I wrote to Oriana in June 2022 and haven't received a response.
These children reported seeing:
Tim Leach interviewed three children (Guy, Kayleigh, Oriana) as well as Mr Colin Mackie (headmaster). I wrote to Oriana in June 2022 and haven't received a response.
These children reported seeing:
- a glinting disc in the trees, 100m away (did not see it land, vague description of it disappearing)
- did not make any noise
- a thin man about 5'6" tall with low-set eyes walking towards them and back again
- or, three men - one black sitting on the "spaceship", one white, one red
LEACH: Could you tell me what you saw on Friday?
GUY (age 11): It looked like it was glinting in the trees. It looked roundabout like a like a disc, like a round -
And whereabouts was it?
GUY: It was in the trees over there, between the third pole.
And you say it looked like a disc. Are you sure it wasn’t a Harrier jump jet, or an aircraft, something the Zimbabwe Air Force have got?
GUY: No, it was like in a disc.
And what happened, Guy?
GUY: Well it was just glinting in the trees and there was a man, and he walked toward us and he walked back again.
What did he look like?
GUY: His face was like this [outlines his own face] and his eyes were down here [touches his cheeks].
What, further down his face?
GUY: Yeah, much further down that us because our eyes are here, his were down-
And how close were you to him?
GUY: Well I was like at the back because I just been finished in the classroom and I was quite at the back. So all the other kids were in the front.
You don't think it was somebody in fancy dress doing a prank or something?
GUY: No.
GUY (age 11): It looked like it was glinting in the trees. It looked roundabout like a like a disc, like a round -
And whereabouts was it?
GUY: It was in the trees over there, between the third pole.
And you say it looked like a disc. Are you sure it wasn’t a Harrier jump jet, or an aircraft, something the Zimbabwe Air Force have got?
GUY: No, it was like in a disc.
And what happened, Guy?
GUY: Well it was just glinting in the trees and there was a man, and he walked toward us and he walked back again.
What did he look like?
GUY: His face was like this [outlines his own face] and his eyes were down here [touches his cheeks].
What, further down his face?
GUY: Yeah, much further down that us because our eyes are here, his were down-
And how close were you to him?
GUY: Well I was like at the back because I just been finished in the classroom and I was quite at the back. So all the other kids were in the front.
You don't think it was somebody in fancy dress doing a prank or something?
GUY: No.
ORIANA: I saw the same as Guy but under the silver glittery thing I saw this black - looks like a stick but was very thin.
A man?
ORIANA: I don’t know what it was but it was very thin. All I saw was a long thing on a silver thing.
GUY: And he was very very thin.
D'you think he was a black Zimbabwean man?
GUY: No, not really. He wasn't very very dark, he was very - quite lightish and he was very thin.
How tall about?
GUY: About, say, there. [holds hand up, about 5’6”]
Just a bit taller than you?
GUY: Well yeah.
Why do you think that this was something different, this wasn't some helicopter from the Zimbabwe Air Force, and just some guys playing a joke - why do you think it was actually a UFO and possibly a spaceman?
GUY: It was just because it was - somebody wouldn’t just be playing around and just be on the ground all of a sudden.
Did it make any noise, this thing?
GUY: Not really, no.
And it landed? Something landed? Did you see it land?
GUY: No, it was in the trees over there, like in the trees like glinting. And like there was somebody on the ground.
And then what happened?
GUY: And then he walked towards us and he walked back again and they just went.
How? How did they go?
GUY: It just went all of a sudden.
What, like a helicopter?
GUY: No, just went.
Which way?
GUY: Down - more down into the valley.
At about what height?
GUY: Quite high, like.
And then what happened?
GUY: And then it didn’t come back again.
A man?
ORIANA: I don’t know what it was but it was very thin. All I saw was a long thing on a silver thing.
GUY: And he was very very thin.
D'you think he was a black Zimbabwean man?
GUY: No, not really. He wasn't very very dark, he was very - quite lightish and he was very thin.
How tall about?
GUY: About, say, there. [holds hand up, about 5’6”]
Just a bit taller than you?
GUY: Well yeah.
Why do you think that this was something different, this wasn't some helicopter from the Zimbabwe Air Force, and just some guys playing a joke - why do you think it was actually a UFO and possibly a spaceman?
GUY: It was just because it was - somebody wouldn’t just be playing around and just be on the ground all of a sudden.
Did it make any noise, this thing?
GUY: Not really, no.
And it landed? Something landed? Did you see it land?
GUY: No, it was in the trees over there, like in the trees like glinting. And like there was somebody on the ground.
And then what happened?
GUY: And then he walked towards us and he walked back again and they just went.
How? How did they go?
GUY: It just went all of a sudden.
What, like a helicopter?
GUY: No, just went.
Which way?
GUY: Down - more down into the valley.
At about what height?
GUY: Quite high, like.
And then what happened?
GUY: And then it didn’t come back again.
And did you girls see that as well?
GIRLS: Yes.
Great. [end of interview - the rest must've come earlier]
KAYLEIGH: We saw some people - a white one, a red one, a black one. The black one was sitting on the spaceship.
How d’you know it was a spaceship? It wasn’t a helicopter?
KAYLEIGH: No.
~~~~~~~
MACKIE: We asked them to draw pictures of what they saw this morning, what they saw on Friday.
[This confirms the pictures were drawn on Monday, three days after the event, and not immediately afterwards as is often reported.]
GIRLS: Yes.
Great. [end of interview - the rest must've come earlier]
KAYLEIGH: We saw some people - a white one, a red one, a black one. The black one was sitting on the spaceship.
How d’you know it was a spaceship? It wasn’t a helicopter?
KAYLEIGH: No.
~~~~~~~
MACKIE: We asked them to draw pictures of what they saw this morning, what they saw on Friday.
[This confirms the pictures were drawn on Monday, three days after the event, and not immediately afterwards as is often reported.]
Interviews with Cynthia Hind, MUFON investigator
Tuesday Sep 20, 1994
On Tuesday, Hind visited the school with Leach and the BBC crew. She spoke with headmaster Mackie, then interviewed six children (Nathaniel, Luke, Trevor, Daniel, Emily B, Charity) from grade 7 together in the staffroom, discussed aliens with Mackie, and then asked questions of Emma and Lisel after seeing their drawings. I queried the Ariel Phenomenon (Randall Nickerson) Twitter account in June 2022 about Lisel's grade at the time, as she has said grade 6, her drawing says grade 6, but the film says grade 4 - I haven't received a response.
These children report seeing:
On Tuesday, Hind visited the school with Leach and the BBC crew. She spoke with headmaster Mackie, then interviewed six children (Nathaniel, Luke, Trevor, Daniel, Emily B, Charity) from grade 7 together in the staffroom, discussed aliens with Mackie, and then asked questions of Emma and Lisel after seeing their drawings. I queried the Ariel Phenomenon (Randall Nickerson) Twitter account in June 2022 about Lisel's grade at the time, as she has said grade 6, her drawing says grade 6, but the film says grade 4 - I haven't received a response.
These children report seeing:
- a round object or ship in the trees (Nathaniel reports a platform) and little ones around it
- a man or thing running around on top, another thing on the side
- the man was their size, wearing a shiny black suit, had long black hair, big eyes, face not visible
- the man stared, then went back inside
- Lisel thought it was the gardener
- Emma saw the object go up 1 meter then disappear
- Stefan suggests a second UFO landed at a different site, but Hind is unsure about it in her 1996 book.
[Children file in, sit in a line. The footage is an uncut video, so presumably everything the children said was recorded as follows.]
MACKIE: Alright these are the grade 7s, the oldest children here at the school who say they saw something.
HIND: Did you all see something?
CHILDREN: Yes.
HIND: Can you just tell me very briefly, we’ll go along. Just say what your name is and what you saw.
MACKIE: Alright these are the grade 7s, the oldest children here at the school who say they saw something.
HIND: Did you all see something?
CHILDREN: Yes.
HIND: Can you just tell me very briefly, we’ll go along. Just say what your name is and what you saw.
NATHANIEL C
What did you see?
I saw a sort of like ship, landed on the ground.
Why do you say ship? Did it have a shape?
Yes.
Like what?
It was - it had a round top and it was flat like that around the sides.
What was around the sides?
Just a sort of like a platform coming around the side.
Did you see anything else?
Yes. We saw a black man running around.
A little man, or what?
From where we looked he was about this small [indicates 1 meter] but we were quite a way away so he was about our size.
Could you see his face?
No.
What did you see?
I saw a sort of like ship, landed on the ground.
Why do you say ship? Did it have a shape?
Yes.
Like what?
It was - it had a round top and it was flat like that around the sides.
What was around the sides?
Just a sort of like a platform coming around the side.
Did you see anything else?
Yes. We saw a black man running around.
A little man, or what?
From where we looked he was about this small [indicates 1 meter] but we were quite a way away so he was about our size.
Could you see his face?
No.
LUKE N
I didn’t see the spaceship but I saw the little black guy, he looked - he was all black, and it looked like he had long hair.
Could you see his face?
No.
Just in a black - What was he wearing?
It just looked like he had long hair, lonnnng hair, and he was all black.
But he wasn’t naked.
No.
What did he have on?
No, that's all. That’s all you could see.
You could only see that?
Yeah.
Why? Was he among the trees?
["Luke reiterated what he had told Mrs. Kirkman earlier about the small man with a band around his head." (Hind, UFOs Over Africa, 1996, p. 229) - this statement from Hind's book does not appear accurate, as Luke never mentions the band.]
I didn’t see the spaceship but I saw the little black guy, he looked - he was all black, and it looked like he had long hair.
Could you see his face?
No.
Just in a black - What was he wearing?
It just looked like he had long hair, lonnnng hair, and he was all black.
But he wasn’t naked.
No.
What did he have on?
No, that's all. That’s all you could see.
You could only see that?
Yeah.
Why? Was he among the trees?
["Luke reiterated what he had told Mrs. Kirkman earlier about the small man with a band around his head." (Hind, UFOs Over Africa, 1996, p. 229) - this statement from Hind's book does not appear accurate, as Luke never mentions the band.]
TREVOR
[answering Hind's previous question]
It was just about like a shadow. We just saw a shadow going.
What is your name?
Trevor ___.
And you also saw this creature?
Yes. We were all - Yes.
What did you think it was?
Um, I don’t know really.
Did you see the thing, whatever it was, land?
[Luke shakes his head, no, then looks surprised when Trevor answers and continues shaking his head] Yes, um after the bell rang I was walking up to the class and I just saw flashes in the side of my eye. And that’s really all I saw.
But you didn’t see anything on the ground?
No, I saw the - just the –
The shadow.
Yes.
[answering Hind's previous question]
It was just about like a shadow. We just saw a shadow going.
What is your name?
Trevor ___.
And you also saw this creature?
Yes. We were all - Yes.
What did you think it was?
Um, I don’t know really.
Did you see the thing, whatever it was, land?
[Luke shakes his head, no, then looks surprised when Trevor answers and continues shaking his head] Yes, um after the bell rang I was walking up to the class and I just saw flashes in the side of my eye. And that’s really all I saw.
But you didn’t see anything on the ground?
No, I saw the - just the –
The shadow.
Yes.
DANIEL M
What’s your name?
I’m Daniel M___. And I saw this silver thing in amongst this clump of trees with this one thing sitting on the side and another thing sort of like running up and down the top.
When you say "thing", was it a form of some sort?
Yeah, it almost looked like a real person except it was fairly plump.
["Daniel was the only one who saw the entities as being 'plump.' He himself is a well-built boy for his age, and one wonders if this might not have influenced his assessment." (Hind, UFOs Over Africa, 1996, p. 229)]
Plump, like me then. And what did you think it was? What were your thoughts?
At first I thought it was just some boy from the compound [labourers’ quarters] playing around, but the hair was - it looked more like our hair, it wasn’t curly. That thing almost looked like a hippie.
Like a hippie.
What’s your name?
I’m Daniel M___. And I saw this silver thing in amongst this clump of trees with this one thing sitting on the side and another thing sort of like running up and down the top.
When you say "thing", was it a form of some sort?
Yeah, it almost looked like a real person except it was fairly plump.
["Daniel was the only one who saw the entities as being 'plump.' He himself is a well-built boy for his age, and one wonders if this might not have influenced his assessment." (Hind, UFOs Over Africa, 1996, p. 229)]
Plump, like me then. And what did you think it was? What were your thoughts?
At first I thought it was just some boy from the compound [labourers’ quarters] playing around, but the hair was - it looked more like our hair, it wasn’t curly. That thing almost looked like a hippie.
Like a hippie.
EMILY B
And your name?
My name is Emily B___. I saw the little black men. They had longish hair and it was all black. And they had big black eyes. That’s all I saw. I saw a glimpse. They kind of turned around and stared and then went back into a kind of like ship. There was like sort of one big one and quite a few little ones.
As well.
Scattered around.
When you say had big eyes, show me with your hands the size compared to yours.
They were oval, kind of like that.
Oval.
Yes.
I see. And could you see anything else on the face?
No I couldn’t, all I could see was his hair and when he turned around and then [mimes eyes again] -
Were you afraid?
Yes, I was.
What did you think it was?
Well everybody was saying that they were UFOs and everything, so [shrugs] I -
A lot of people said they were UFOs?
Yeah, people were coming around telling - we were in a classroom and I ran out and I saw it. I did think they were UFOs. I did see them.
Were you perhaps influenced by what the other children had said?
Sort of, but I did definitely see -
What you saw.
- what I saw, yes.
And your name?
My name is Emily B___. I saw the little black men. They had longish hair and it was all black. And they had big black eyes. That’s all I saw. I saw a glimpse. They kind of turned around and stared and then went back into a kind of like ship. There was like sort of one big one and quite a few little ones.
As well.
Scattered around.
When you say had big eyes, show me with your hands the size compared to yours.
They were oval, kind of like that.
Oval.
Yes.
I see. And could you see anything else on the face?
No I couldn’t, all I could see was his hair and when he turned around and then [mimes eyes again] -
Were you afraid?
Yes, I was.
What did you think it was?
Well everybody was saying that they were UFOs and everything, so [shrugs] I -
A lot of people said they were UFOs?
Yeah, people were coming around telling - we were in a classroom and I ran out and I saw it. I did think they were UFOs. I did see them.
Were you perhaps influenced by what the other children had said?
Sort of, but I did definitely see -
What you saw.
- what I saw, yes.
CHARITY S
Did you also see?
Yes.
What is your name?
Charity ___.
What did you see?
I saw something silver on the ground amongst the trees, and a person in black. And that’s all I saw.
You saw a person alongside the silver thing?
Yes.
What did the silver thing look like?
It looked like a saucer but the shape wasn’t really round.
Had you heard about UFOs before this?
No.
You didn’t know anything about it, so it was something quite new to you?
Yes.
Were you afraid?
Yes.
What did you do? Did you run to fetch the teachers, or you just stayed with the other children?
I stayed with the other children.
Okay thank you.
Did you also see?
Yes.
What is your name?
Charity ___.
What did you see?
I saw something silver on the ground amongst the trees, and a person in black. And that’s all I saw.
You saw a person alongside the silver thing?
Yes.
What did the silver thing look like?
It looked like a saucer but the shape wasn’t really round.
Had you heard about UFOs before this?
No.
You didn’t know anything about it, so it was something quite new to you?
Yes.
Were you afraid?
Yes.
What did you do? Did you run to fetch the teachers, or you just stayed with the other children?
I stayed with the other children.
Okay thank you.
MR MACKIE
Hind and Mackie discuss the event in front of the children.
MACKIE: We were actually having a staff meeting at this particular point in time, so to my knowledge there wasn’t any of the adults actually - [cut] I only became aware of it much later, actually.
HIND: you didn’t at the time?
M: At the time it happened, no, because as I said we were in here, in the middle of a staff meeting and I only became aware of it about an hour later. And then at lunch time a few of the children told their parents when they came to collect them. A few of the parents took a wander down there to see if they could see anything. That is when I really became concerned because if there was something there I didn’t really want everybody walking down there.
H: Can you just tell me, what was your attitude to the whole concept of people from other planets or other dimensions coming to Earth? Are you skeptical or have you always had an open mind?
M: I believe it can happen. I am skeptical to a point but I do believe it could happen, and I do believe that the children here today believe themselves that they did see something. I’m totally convinced of that.
H: Okay. Yes. We’d like to go down to the area, if we may, because we’ve got some electrical equipment, just to measure - a Geiger counter, if there’s any radioactivity. But I think for the moment you should keep everybody away until we’ve had some analysis, you know, what’s going on.
M: Do you want to - you said [child’s name] and um Emma K___.
H: And Emma, yes because of the drawing. In fact John Spencer, who’s head of BUFORA, phoned yesterday and Mr Leach had very kindly sent, faxed over all these pictures, and they picked those two out particularly. But I find many interesting drawings there. So I think if I can just go through them again before I leave and just ask you to ask the children certain questions on those particular drawings. Okay? Also, America’s been on the line. We’ve spoken to America and they’re phoning tonight. So I think you might find that the school is going to become through Mr Leach a hive of activity very shortly. Okay, sorry about the disruption.
M: No problem.
H: But they did tell me from London this will be the biggest story of the twentieth century.
M: As far as the headmaster is concerned, I’m willing to cooperate with whatever is going on, as long as we keep the school running as such.
H: Yes I don’t think they’ll interfere with the children. The main thing is to try and get stories. I find the girls’ descriptions are slightly different from the boys’ which is obvious. We want to try and measure the distance where the thing was seen, and then Mr Hofer’s got some equipment he’d like to - if there’s any metal, if there’s any radioactivity. And if there is, we’ll just keep away from that area for the moment. All I want to tell you is, nobody should panic. We don’t know what it is and it could be just some - there was a Russian satellite went up on the 27th August and it’s a possibility something came down, but it would not account for the figure you saw. And I think it’s time the world woke up that something’s going on and they don’t all think I’m a kooky character. Weird lady as they call me here.
M: Alright, Mr Vernon if you could just take your grade 6s-
[cut]
[Kids looking through doorway]
[Woman teacher]: Have you told Mrs Hind about the Thursday as well?
M: Some of the children say they actually saw it on Thursday as well, which is the day before.
Teacher: They were quite embarrassed.
M: I think they were quite shy about - yeah. You see on some of the drawings like this one here, it’s got what you saw on Thursday and then basically what he saw on Friday.
H: Like a pencil in the sky, yeah.
Hind and Mackie discuss the event in front of the children.
- Mackie admits aliens are possible, and they discuss the drawings in front of the kids
- Hind lets them know the story is huge - she's talking to London and America, and this could be the biggest story of the 20th century
- Hind puts on their shoulders the burden of not making her look kooky
- A "pencil in the sky" sighting from the day before (Thurs) is brought up
MACKIE: We were actually having a staff meeting at this particular point in time, so to my knowledge there wasn’t any of the adults actually - [cut] I only became aware of it much later, actually.
HIND: you didn’t at the time?
M: At the time it happened, no, because as I said we were in here, in the middle of a staff meeting and I only became aware of it about an hour later. And then at lunch time a few of the children told their parents when they came to collect them. A few of the parents took a wander down there to see if they could see anything. That is when I really became concerned because if there was something there I didn’t really want everybody walking down there.
H: Can you just tell me, what was your attitude to the whole concept of people from other planets or other dimensions coming to Earth? Are you skeptical or have you always had an open mind?
M: I believe it can happen. I am skeptical to a point but I do believe it could happen, and I do believe that the children here today believe themselves that they did see something. I’m totally convinced of that.
H: Okay. Yes. We’d like to go down to the area, if we may, because we’ve got some electrical equipment, just to measure - a Geiger counter, if there’s any radioactivity. But I think for the moment you should keep everybody away until we’ve had some analysis, you know, what’s going on.
M: Do you want to - you said [child’s name] and um Emma K___.
H: And Emma, yes because of the drawing. In fact John Spencer, who’s head of BUFORA, phoned yesterday and Mr Leach had very kindly sent, faxed over all these pictures, and they picked those two out particularly. But I find many interesting drawings there. So I think if I can just go through them again before I leave and just ask you to ask the children certain questions on those particular drawings. Okay? Also, America’s been on the line. We’ve spoken to America and they’re phoning tonight. So I think you might find that the school is going to become through Mr Leach a hive of activity very shortly. Okay, sorry about the disruption.
M: No problem.
H: But they did tell me from London this will be the biggest story of the twentieth century.
M: As far as the headmaster is concerned, I’m willing to cooperate with whatever is going on, as long as we keep the school running as such.
H: Yes I don’t think they’ll interfere with the children. The main thing is to try and get stories. I find the girls’ descriptions are slightly different from the boys’ which is obvious. We want to try and measure the distance where the thing was seen, and then Mr Hofer’s got some equipment he’d like to - if there’s any metal, if there’s any radioactivity. And if there is, we’ll just keep away from that area for the moment. All I want to tell you is, nobody should panic. We don’t know what it is and it could be just some - there was a Russian satellite went up on the 27th August and it’s a possibility something came down, but it would not account for the figure you saw. And I think it’s time the world woke up that something’s going on and they don’t all think I’m a kooky character. Weird lady as they call me here.
M: Alright, Mr Vernon if you could just take your grade 6s-
[cut]
[Kids looking through doorway]
[Woman teacher]: Have you told Mrs Hind about the Thursday as well?
M: Some of the children say they actually saw it on Thursday as well, which is the day before.
Teacher: They were quite embarrassed.
M: I think they were quite shy about - yeah. You see on some of the drawings like this one here, it’s got what you saw on Thursday and then basically what he saw on Friday.
H: Like a pencil in the sky, yeah.
EMMA K
Note: 2.5 months later Dr Mack will interview Emma and eventually elicit from her a telepathic message received from the being. Here, she doesn't mention it.
Teacher: And this is Emma. [Emma sits]
HIND: Oh, Emma K___?
EMMA: Yes.
Yes because your drawing was particularly interesting - they have asked me about it. In your drawing you’ve got not only the main object there but you’ve got several others. Now did you see these coming down?
No.
Or did you see them in the sky?
I saw them disappear. They went 1 meter up from the ground and then they just disappeared.
They went 1 meter up and they disappeared. And this, this, you saw this creature?
Yes, he was very very shiny black.
Shiny black -
Shiny black.
- suit?
Kind of suit.
Would you say it was like an ordinary suit, was it like what Mr Mackie’s wearing?
No.
Or what would you call the type of clothing?
[thinks] I’m not sure but he was really-
Have you ever seen the divers going in the sea?
Oh yes, like that.
Was it like that, or was it like an overall or a tight-fitting suit?
It was tight-fitting.
It was tight-fitting. And it was shiny.
Yes.
Could you see his face?
Well, I only saw a glimpse of it.
And you don’t remember any individual features?
Well, I only remember that his eyes were quite big.
Eyes were big. And were you afraid?
I was a little afraid.
What did you think it was?
I don’t know, I just thought it was some kind of alien from a different planet.
So you knew about UFOs?
Yes.
You’ve watched on television?
Yes.
You think that influenced you?
Mmm…
Or you weren’t thinking about it when you -
I wasn’t thinking about it.
Okay.
Note: 2.5 months later Dr Mack will interview Emma and eventually elicit from her a telepathic message received from the being. Here, she doesn't mention it.
Teacher: And this is Emma. [Emma sits]
HIND: Oh, Emma K___?
EMMA: Yes.
Yes because your drawing was particularly interesting - they have asked me about it. In your drawing you’ve got not only the main object there but you’ve got several others. Now did you see these coming down?
No.
Or did you see them in the sky?
I saw them disappear. They went 1 meter up from the ground and then they just disappeared.
They went 1 meter up and they disappeared. And this, this, you saw this creature?
Yes, he was very very shiny black.
Shiny black -
Shiny black.
- suit?
Kind of suit.
Would you say it was like an ordinary suit, was it like what Mr Mackie’s wearing?
No.
Or what would you call the type of clothing?
[thinks] I’m not sure but he was really-
Have you ever seen the divers going in the sea?
Oh yes, like that.
Was it like that, or was it like an overall or a tight-fitting suit?
It was tight-fitting.
It was tight-fitting. And it was shiny.
Yes.
Could you see his face?
Well, I only saw a glimpse of it.
And you don’t remember any individual features?
Well, I only remember that his eyes were quite big.
Eyes were big. And were you afraid?
I was a little afraid.
What did you think it was?
I don’t know, I just thought it was some kind of alien from a different planet.
So you knew about UFOs?
Yes.
You’ve watched on television?
Yes.
You think that influenced you?
Mmm…
Or you weren’t thinking about it when you -
I wasn’t thinking about it.
Okay.
LISEL P
Note: 2.5 months later Dr Mack will also interview Lisel and eventually elicit from her a telepathic message received from the being. Here, she doesn't mention it.
MACKIE: Lisel was the other one.
HIND: Lisel P?
LISEL: Yes.
And what did you see?
Well I saw a silver sort of thing, it was shaped [circles her finger], it was like lying down like this on the side. And I saw a black man, he was just in black, and he had big eyes.
Show me with your hand how big the eyes were.
They were shaped something like that. [makes rings over her eyes with her fingers]
What did you think it was?
Well I thought twice. I thought it was an alien, and then I thought maybe it was the gardener or someone.
Oh you first thought it was an alien, and then you thought it was the gardener?
Yes.
Oh, well I’d like to look at the gardener. Thank you very much.
Note: 2.5 months later Dr Mack will also interview Lisel and eventually elicit from her a telepathic message received from the being. Here, she doesn't mention it.
MACKIE: Lisel was the other one.
HIND: Lisel P?
LISEL: Yes.
And what did you see?
Well I saw a silver sort of thing, it was shaped [circles her finger], it was like lying down like this on the side. And I saw a black man, he was just in black, and he had big eyes.
Show me with your hand how big the eyes were.
They were shaped something like that. [makes rings over her eyes with her fingers]
What did you think it was?
Well I thought twice. I thought it was an alien, and then I thought maybe it was the gardener or someone.
Oh you first thought it was an alien, and then you thought it was the gardener?
Yes.
Oh, well I’d like to look at the gardener. Thank you very much.
Hind indicates a cluster of broken shoots (see transcript)
EXAMINATION OF THE SITE
MACKIE: They actually [---] saw it again over in this direction [points to an area left of the first site]. So that’s why I’ve asked Stefan to stay. You remember the picture with the electric line? This is the electric line. [Pointing to the site the other children have agreed upon] It was in between the gap of this one, behind the pile of dirt.
HIND: It’s nothing to do with where that’s broken down there? [indicating a cluster of broken shoots]
MACKIE: No.
HIND: Where did Emma see it?
EMMA: I saw it - I was standing over there and I moved to there because a few children were [---] but I moved over there and I saw it, the same one but you could see it from both directions. [She points a bit to the left of where Hind was pointing.]
MACKIE: They actually [---] saw it again over in this direction [points to an area left of the first site]. So that’s why I’ve asked Stefan to stay. You remember the picture with the electric line? This is the electric line. [Pointing to the site the other children have agreed upon] It was in between the gap of this one, behind the pile of dirt.
HIND: It’s nothing to do with where that’s broken down there? [indicating a cluster of broken shoots]
MACKIE: No.
HIND: Where did Emma see it?
EMMA: I saw it - I was standing over there and I moved to there because a few children were [---] but I moved over there and I saw it, the same one but you could see it from both directions. [She points a bit to the left of where Hind was pointing.]
HIND: And this chap?
MACKIE: This guy Stefan, he actually said he saw it over in this direction over here. [Pointing even further to the left.]
HIND: You think it moved from one place to the other?
STEFAN: Ah, no.
HIND: No, it was just - there might’ve been two then.
STEFAN: Yes.
HIND: Okay.
["some of the children pinpointed a second landing site, and I'm not sure if this is a mistaken perspective on their part or something significant that I originally missed." (Hind, UFOs Over Africa, 1996, p. 230)]
[A few of the children and adults walk across to the site, Gunter Hofer with his Geiger counter.]
GUNTER: I don’t seem to detect any abnormalities really, you know, because some changes - the Geiger would be going faster.
LEACH: So it’s just normal background radiation?
GUNTER: Yeah. This is about normal.
MACKIE: This guy Stefan, he actually said he saw it over in this direction over here. [Pointing even further to the left.]
HIND: You think it moved from one place to the other?
STEFAN: Ah, no.
HIND: No, it was just - there might’ve been two then.
STEFAN: Yes.
HIND: Okay.
["some of the children pinpointed a second landing site, and I'm not sure if this is a mistaken perspective on their part or something significant that I originally missed." (Hind, UFOs Over Africa, 1996, p. 230)]
[A few of the children and adults walk across to the site, Gunter Hofer with his Geiger counter.]
GUNTER: I don’t seem to detect any abnormalities really, you know, because some changes - the Geiger would be going faster.
LEACH: So it’s just normal background radiation?
GUNTER: Yeah. This is about normal.
CYNTHIA HIND & GUNTER HOFER
After no landing traces or radiation are found at the site, Tim Leach interviews Hind and Hofer.
LEACH: Cynthia, what are your impressions after this morning’s little expedition?
HIND: Well, I certainly believe the children. [Talks about Broadhaven 1979]... and the British didn’t believe it although I went down three times. And it’s very similar to the whole incident here. We’ve some extremely interesting pictures and there’s certainly some of the things they’ve told me they couldn’t have known about. Impossible.
What about you?
GUNTER: Well, as far as i could see - we tried to go and find some of the markings that the children saw from a distance but it’s hard to judge actually. I’d have to come out on another day to actually scan the whole area and find out. But I do believe what the children saw something real to them. Very unusual figures, long straight black hair, large eyes, which is quite typical with the large black eyes.
You don’t think you got the equipment at the moment to -
GUNTER: No I haven’t. It’s a problem here in Zimbabwe to actually acquire equipment. It would be great if some of these equipment could be acquired.
How skeptical are you?
GUNTER: Well, I would like to see some evidence. But from what I see from some of the children, I do believe that something happened.
So both of you [---] worthwhile expedition out here then?
HIND: Oh definitely. I’m skeptical too. I’m not all that gullible. But this to me is a very typical case, and I’ve handled several hundred in southern Africa. And not only that, I’ve traveled overseas and I’ve seen in England, America, South America, Europe - very typical. I think we’ll see! Only thing that worries me is how long this was on the ground. There is a missing time element which we haven’t been able to go into yet, but it’s something I would like to discuss with the headmaster Mr Mackie.
After no landing traces or radiation are found at the site, Tim Leach interviews Hind and Hofer.
- Hind appears to have something to prove after failing to convince the British of Broadhaven
- Hind does not specify what "impossible" things the children told her
- The "missing time element" may be a reference to her interpretation of one picture, how the children saw the creatures close-up although they were far away.
LEACH: Cynthia, what are your impressions after this morning’s little expedition?
HIND: Well, I certainly believe the children. [Talks about Broadhaven 1979]... and the British didn’t believe it although I went down three times. And it’s very similar to the whole incident here. We’ve some extremely interesting pictures and there’s certainly some of the things they’ve told me they couldn’t have known about. Impossible.
What about you?
GUNTER: Well, as far as i could see - we tried to go and find some of the markings that the children saw from a distance but it’s hard to judge actually. I’d have to come out on another day to actually scan the whole area and find out. But I do believe what the children saw something real to them. Very unusual figures, long straight black hair, large eyes, which is quite typical with the large black eyes.
You don’t think you got the equipment at the moment to -
GUNTER: No I haven’t. It’s a problem here in Zimbabwe to actually acquire equipment. It would be great if some of these equipment could be acquired.
How skeptical are you?
GUNTER: Well, I would like to see some evidence. But from what I see from some of the children, I do believe that something happened.
So both of you [---] worthwhile expedition out here then?
HIND: Oh definitely. I’m skeptical too. I’m not all that gullible. But this to me is a very typical case, and I’ve handled several hundred in southern Africa. And not only that, I’ve traveled overseas and I’ve seen in England, America, South America, Europe - very typical. I think we’ll see! Only thing that worries me is how long this was on the ground. There is a missing time element which we haven’t been able to go into yet, but it’s something I would like to discuss with the headmaster Mr Mackie.
Sources
*recommended
- Tim Leach interview timestamped
- Full Tim Leach interview with Guy only timestamped
- BBC retrospective (narrow format)
- *BBC retrospective (wide format, better quality, slightly different from above)
- Various interviews (first 5:45 minutes are BBC/Hind)
- *Hind's visit on her assistant Gunter Hofer's channel
- UFOs Over Africa, Cynthia Hind, 1996
(c) Charlie Wiser 2022
