MACK INTERVIEWS |
|||
ADULT TESTIMONIES |
Interviews with Dr John Mack
Dec 2-3, 1994
Dr John Mack was a psychiatrist and academic at Harvard, who at this time had been researching the alien abduction phenomenon for several years. He interviewed 12 children, of which 7 are available online. In June 2022 I wrote to the John Mack Institute asking for full transcripts of these interviews, and learned they had made none - a remarkable oversight given the importance to humanity of contact with alien beings.
I have pieced together as best as I can from various sources every question-and-response for each child. Mack also spoke to Mr Mackie and teachers at Ariel and at another meeting, excerpts of which are at the end of this page.
New details added to the story in these interviews:
Blue excerpts are from Sightings and are not verified quotes.
Dr John Mack was a psychiatrist and academic at Harvard, who at this time had been researching the alien abduction phenomenon for several years. He interviewed 12 children, of which 7 are available online. In June 2022 I wrote to the John Mack Institute asking for full transcripts of these interviews, and learned they had made none - a remarkable oversight given the importance to humanity of contact with alien beings.
I have pieced together as best as I can from various sources every question-and-response for each child. Mack also spoke to Mr Mackie and teachers at Ariel and at another meeting, excerpts of which are at the end of this page.
New details added to the story in these interviews:
- The aliens stared and the children were scared.
- The children are asked to speculate on the aliens' intentions.
- Messages about the environment were telepathically communicated through the aliens' eyes.
- Emma thought one being wanted her to go with it.
Blue excerpts are from Sightings and are not verified quotes.
Nathaniel C
NATHANIEL: I'm drawing the ship. [cut] With a couple of lights.
[cut]
It was silver and the ring around it was red.
It was red. Did light come from the whole thing or -?
There were lights around here.
Lights along the edge there.
[cut]
Both of them were running. One was running in the trees and the other was running across the ship. Cuz there were also trees here. [indicates on both sides of ship]
[cut]
What was it doing?
It was hovering above the trees. That's when I saw the little men, and then just couldn't see the men or the object anymore. I don't see how anything from this world could fly away so fast.
What did the men you saw look like?
The hair was a bit like Michael Jackson, and they had on a black suit. They had short legs and quite a long top. And a big head and eyes that are bigger than ours.
How much bigger than ours?
Four or five times the size.
Four or five times the size of ours?
[cut]
How tall would you guess they were?
They were about my size.
About your size.
[cut]
Like diving suits, deep-sea diving.
[cut]
What would you say to the idea that this was an experimental craft that landed where it shouldn't have, and these men were in spacesuits and helmets?
Well, unless kids my age got dressed up in diving suits and built a spacecraft... these men were my size.
[from Passport to the Cosmos, Mack (1999) p. 12]: I asked... what he would say to someone who suggested
the children imagined or dreamed the incident.
I would say that most of the other kids in my class saw it as well. [a little indignantly]
[cut]
It was silver and the ring around it was red.
It was red. Did light come from the whole thing or -?
There were lights around here.
Lights along the edge there.
[cut]
Both of them were running. One was running in the trees and the other was running across the ship. Cuz there were also trees here. [indicates on both sides of ship]
[cut]
What was it doing?
It was hovering above the trees. That's when I saw the little men, and then just couldn't see the men or the object anymore. I don't see how anything from this world could fly away so fast.
What did the men you saw look like?
The hair was a bit like Michael Jackson, and they had on a black suit. They had short legs and quite a long top. And a big head and eyes that are bigger than ours.
How much bigger than ours?
Four or five times the size.
Four or five times the size of ours?
[cut]
How tall would you guess they were?
They were about my size.
About your size.
[cut]
Like diving suits, deep-sea diving.
[cut]
What would you say to the idea that this was an experimental craft that landed where it shouldn't have, and these men were in spacesuits and helmets?
Well, unless kids my age got dressed up in diving suits and built a spacecraft... these men were my size.
[from Passport to the Cosmos, Mack (1999) p. 12]: I asked... what he would say to someone who suggested
the children imagined or dreamed the incident.
I would say that most of the other kids in my class saw it as well. [a little indignantly]
Emily B
How many of these strange beings did you see?
I saw one over here, they had eyes like that and they were kind of just like looking at us. They were like kind of astonished at what we were.
You said you saw two - what would you call them?
Aliens.
Aliens, you call them. Where were the aliens in relation to the craft?
I saw one over here and I saw one of these men by the spaceship, looks like it was guarding by the big spaceship. And there was another one running in the grass.
How did he run compared to, say, the way a kid would run?
He ran normally like us, but bouncy as if a human would run on the moon.
You mean as if there were less gravity? He seemed light?
Yes. But not as much as a human on the moon.
Not that extreme?
[she shakes head, no]
When he ran this distance, he stopped and he looked at us for a while, and then he ran back again.
[cut]
They were just like looking at all of us. They didn’t - they seemed to have stiff necks. They didn’t seem to move their necks like we can.
If someone were to say well, this is imagination, this is a dream, how is it different from imagination or dream, as you experienced it?
Well it’s definitely reality. And anybody can think that it’s not true or that we’re making things up, but we know what we’ve seen and we believe it.
Right.
[cut]
If someone were to say, well you just have a lively imagination and you made this up, what would you say?
I haven’t been influenced by any of my friends. I have seen what I’ve seen.
I saw one over here, they had eyes like that and they were kind of just like looking at us. They were like kind of astonished at what we were.
You said you saw two - what would you call them?
Aliens.
Aliens, you call them. Where were the aliens in relation to the craft?
I saw one over here and I saw one of these men by the spaceship, looks like it was guarding by the big spaceship. And there was another one running in the grass.
How did he run compared to, say, the way a kid would run?
He ran normally like us, but bouncy as if a human would run on the moon.
You mean as if there were less gravity? He seemed light?
Yes. But not as much as a human on the moon.
Not that extreme?
[she shakes head, no]
When he ran this distance, he stopped and he looked at us for a while, and then he ran back again.
[cut]
They were just like looking at all of us. They didn’t - they seemed to have stiff necks. They didn’t seem to move their necks like we can.
If someone were to say well, this is imagination, this is a dream, how is it different from imagination or dream, as you experienced it?
Well it’s definitely reality. And anybody can think that it’s not true or that we’re making things up, but we know what we’ve seen and we believe it.
Right.
[cut]
If someone were to say, well you just have a lively imagination and you made this up, what would you say?
I haven’t been influenced by any of my friends. I have seen what I’ve seen.
Lisel P
You’ve talked with the BBC people and with Nicky Carter here before, right?
Yes.
But the experience is still fresh in your mind, is that right?
Yes.
What time of day did this event occur?
At break time.
Break time in the morning, or lunch break?
Morning.
Morning break. And what were you doing at the time?
I was playing in the playground and then we just - we saw something silver and then we quickly ran to the logs and we saw a silver thing, and we saw a man standing next to it.
What did he look like?
Well, he had big eyes, like pointed.
Maybe you could just draw the head. Do you like to draw?
Yes. [she draws face w large protruding eyes] And I couldn’t see his nose and his mouth but his nose was pretty small.
So the eyes were large. Did you look into the eyes? Could you make - did you have a sense that you were -? [makes joining motions with hands]
No, all we saw was his eyes, they were black.
Black. But like were they looking at you, or you at him?
Seemed that he was looking at all of us.
What was it... What did it feel like when he was looking at you?
I felt scared.
It felt scary? What was scary about it?
Well, I felt scared because I’ve never seen such a person like that before.
How do you feel now?
I feel now that it was valuable for me to see, because aliens are something hardly anybody gets to see. And just to see something really strange and new makes me feel good.
[cut]
What I thought was maybe the world’s gonna end, maybe they’re telling us the world’s gonna end.
Why do you think they might want us to be scared?
Hmm. Because, um, maybe because we never - we don’t look after the planet, um the air [area?] properly.
And let me - this is - is this an idea that you have had before, that we don’t look after the planet properly and the air, or did this idea come to you when you had this experience?
[thinks] When I had this experience.
Mm-hm. And how did that idea come to you from this exp- Now this is a little hard, but try to be with me here, okay. When you - how did this idea come to you when you had this experience?
[thinks hard] I just felt all horrible inside.
You felt horrible. At what point did you feel that? When you saw the craft or when you got home at night, or -
When I got home.
You had that horrible feeling when you got home.
Yes.
And say more about that horrible feeling, Lisel, what was it like?
It was like the world, all the trees will just go down and there will be no air and people will be dying.
And those thoughts came to you - had you had those thoughts before this experience?
No.
No. And how did those thoughts come to you? Did they come to you from the craft? Or from -
From the man.
The man. And the man - did the man say those things to you? How did he get that across to you?
Well, he never said anything. It’s just that the face, the eyes. They looked horrible.
And the eyes, the horrible look, had that information that you just told me?
Yes.
[cut]
What was the sense you got from those eyes?
He was interested.
[cut]
You were saying that you thought maybe they were trying to tell us something, like about the future. Can you say more what your thought is or what was it like?
[cut]
[I] felt sorry for him because I had a feeling they had no love or caring. I think that in space there is no love and down here there is.
There is love.
Yes. [cut?] They need love and they're trying to copy us.
Is there anything we can do with that love as far as taking care of the Earth that you had talked about, that the message that we don’t take care of the Earth?
No.
Why not?
[cut]
I believe in it because I did see it.
[cut]
Would you like to see him again?
Yes.
You would like to see him again. Do you think you might see him again?
I don’t know.
And if you saw him again, what would you do?
I’ll ask him some questions.
What would you like to ask him?
I’ll ask him what is he doing on Earth and what does he want with us?
[cut]
Do you still get afraid at night?
Yes.
You do. And what do you f- what do you worry about now at night?
I worry that the man is still looking at me and he's gonna kill me.
Does your mum know you're worried? Did you tell her how worried you are?
No. Most probably she won't believe me.
What would convince you that you're safe?
I don't know.
What could make you feel less worried?
[cut?] The man, he's just always in my mind.
He just won't go out of your mind?
Yes.
Mm-hm. And how - so, what - what would make you less worried? Is there something the man could do?
[shakes head] No.
Yes.
But the experience is still fresh in your mind, is that right?
Yes.
What time of day did this event occur?
At break time.
Break time in the morning, or lunch break?
Morning.
Morning break. And what were you doing at the time?
I was playing in the playground and then we just - we saw something silver and then we quickly ran to the logs and we saw a silver thing, and we saw a man standing next to it.
What did he look like?
Well, he had big eyes, like pointed.
Maybe you could just draw the head. Do you like to draw?
Yes. [she draws face w large protruding eyes] And I couldn’t see his nose and his mouth but his nose was pretty small.
So the eyes were large. Did you look into the eyes? Could you make - did you have a sense that you were -? [makes joining motions with hands]
No, all we saw was his eyes, they were black.
Black. But like were they looking at you, or you at him?
Seemed that he was looking at all of us.
What was it... What did it feel like when he was looking at you?
I felt scared.
It felt scary? What was scary about it?
Well, I felt scared because I’ve never seen such a person like that before.
How do you feel now?
I feel now that it was valuable for me to see, because aliens are something hardly anybody gets to see. And just to see something really strange and new makes me feel good.
[cut]
What I thought was maybe the world’s gonna end, maybe they’re telling us the world’s gonna end.
Why do you think they might want us to be scared?
Hmm. Because, um, maybe because we never - we don’t look after the planet, um the air [area?] properly.
And let me - this is - is this an idea that you have had before, that we don’t look after the planet properly and the air, or did this idea come to you when you had this experience?
[thinks] When I had this experience.
Mm-hm. And how did that idea come to you from this exp- Now this is a little hard, but try to be with me here, okay. When you - how did this idea come to you when you had this experience?
[thinks hard] I just felt all horrible inside.
You felt horrible. At what point did you feel that? When you saw the craft or when you got home at night, or -
When I got home.
You had that horrible feeling when you got home.
Yes.
And say more about that horrible feeling, Lisel, what was it like?
It was like the world, all the trees will just go down and there will be no air and people will be dying.
And those thoughts came to you - had you had those thoughts before this experience?
No.
No. And how did those thoughts come to you? Did they come to you from the craft? Or from -
From the man.
The man. And the man - did the man say those things to you? How did he get that across to you?
Well, he never said anything. It’s just that the face, the eyes. They looked horrible.
And the eyes, the horrible look, had that information that you just told me?
Yes.
[cut]
What was the sense you got from those eyes?
He was interested.
[cut]
You were saying that you thought maybe they were trying to tell us something, like about the future. Can you say more what your thought is or what was it like?
[cut]
[I] felt sorry for him because I had a feeling they had no love or caring. I think that in space there is no love and down here there is.
There is love.
Yes. [cut?] They need love and they're trying to copy us.
Is there anything we can do with that love as far as taking care of the Earth that you had talked about, that the message that we don’t take care of the Earth?
No.
Why not?
[cut]
I believe in it because I did see it.
[cut]
Would you like to see him again?
Yes.
You would like to see him again. Do you think you might see him again?
I don’t know.
And if you saw him again, what would you do?
I’ll ask him some questions.
What would you like to ask him?
I’ll ask him what is he doing on Earth and what does he want with us?
[cut]
Do you still get afraid at night?
Yes.
You do. And what do you f- what do you worry about now at night?
I worry that the man is still looking at me and he's gonna kill me.
Does your mum know you're worried? Did you tell her how worried you are?
No. Most probably she won't believe me.
What would convince you that you're safe?
I don't know.
What could make you feel less worried?
[cut?] The man, he's just always in my mind.
He just won't go out of your mind?
Yes.
Mm-hm. And how - so, what - what would make you less worried? Is there something the man could do?
[shakes head] No.
Hailey
If you could just tell me, you know, like what happened that day. Like, you're - you were outside, I guess, at the break, right?
Yes.
And then what was the first thing that you noticed?
We went down to the bottom of the playground.
[cut]
It had a silver bit that was down the bottom across it. *from 2014 trailer of Ariel Phenomenon film
[cut]
Then I saw like a door.
[cut]
Hailey, something scared you, is that right?
Yes.
What scared you?
The noise.
What noise?
The noise that we heard in the air.
You heard a noise in the air?
Yes.
What was it like? Like a roar or a buzz or a hum, or what kind of a noise?
It was like someone was blowing a flute.
And that scared you?
Yes.
What did you do when you were afraid?
I ran away from it. We told the teacher but she said just forget about it.
[cut]
They weren’t frightened of us. They actually came near. And they didn’t try to attack.
They didn’t act in an unfriendly way?
No.
[cut]
What made you scream?
I was just getting very scared.
What were you scared would happen? Don’t be afraid to say - even if you think it’s not sensible, just tell me what you were afraid might happen.
Um, I thought the aliens would attack me.
Would attack you and do what? Hurt you?
Yes.
How would they do that?
I don’t know.
[cut]
What happened then?
Um, it was at the end of break time. And then when we went back into the class, we told our teacher but none of the teachers believed us.
They wouldn’t believe you? Really?
Yes.
But you all told the same story.
Yes.
And then what was the first thing that you noticed?
We went down to the bottom of the playground.
[cut]
It had a silver bit that was down the bottom across it. *from 2014 trailer of Ariel Phenomenon film
[cut]
Then I saw like a door.
[cut]
Hailey, something scared you, is that right?
Yes.
What scared you?
The noise.
What noise?
The noise that we heard in the air.
You heard a noise in the air?
Yes.
What was it like? Like a roar or a buzz or a hum, or what kind of a noise?
It was like someone was blowing a flute.
And that scared you?
Yes.
What did you do when you were afraid?
I ran away from it. We told the teacher but she said just forget about it.
[cut]
They weren’t frightened of us. They actually came near. And they didn’t try to attack.
They didn’t act in an unfriendly way?
No.
[cut]
What made you scream?
I was just getting very scared.
What were you scared would happen? Don’t be afraid to say - even if you think it’s not sensible, just tell me what you were afraid might happen.
Um, I thought the aliens would attack me.
Would attack you and do what? Hurt you?
Yes.
How would they do that?
I don’t know.
[cut]
What happened then?
Um, it was at the end of break time. And then when we went back into the class, we told our teacher but none of the teachers believed us.
They wouldn’t believe you? Really?
Yes.
But you all told the same story.
Emma K
Have you ever seen a UFO?
I never have, no.
[cut]
It was scaring myself.
Scary because you saw something yourself?
Yes. I saw a little object hovering. It was quite big actually, and then there was little ones all around it. And it looked as if they were changing spaceships.
[cut]
I saw this person and it had big eyes. That's all I saw about it. Big eyes and a black body.
[cut]
But I was looking straight into his eyes.
[cut]
[Emma draws face with big eyes] I didn’t see anything over there.
No nose, you didn’t see a nose?
No. My heart kind of went faster and then slower and then faster and then slower all at the same time.
Now was that - that was excitement?
Yeah, excitement and scariness.
And scary. And you said happy too?
Yeah.
Happy because -
Because… I saw something strange and something peculiar and something nobody had ever seen.
[cut]
[referencing her drawing] What was the effect to be looking at these eyes or have these eyes looking at you? What - how did that affect you?
Scary.
It was scary?
[cut]
The other man, his eyes looked at me as if [stares] uh, I want you. And things like that.
I want to what -
I want you.
I want you. I want you in what - like I want you to come with me? Or I -
Yeah. I want you to come with me. I want you to come.
Did you go with him, do you think?
[confused] No, only my eyes went with him. [laughs]
Your eyes went with him.
And my feeling.
And your feeling went with him. So was there a part of you that wanted to go with him?
Yeah.
That felt like drawn to go with him?
Yeah.
Okay, can you say what that felt like?
Again, scary and a little excited, and a little I shouldn’t go.
And yet, I want to go.
Yeah.
[cut]
He was just staring at me. The eyes didn't have any pupils or color. [Mack, Passport to the Cosmos (1999), p. 280]
[cut]
He was just staring and we like tried not to look at him, cuz he was quite scary.
What was scary about him?
His big eyes, I think.
[cut]
I think they want um people to know that we’re actually making harm on this world and we mustn’t get too technoledged.
What gave you that feeling?
I don’t know.
But it came through to you when you were with the strange being?
Yeah. When he was looking at me,
When he was looking at you.
[cut]
How did that get communicated to you?
I don’t know.
But somehow it did.
Yeah, it came through my head.
Through your head. Did it t- like through words or -?
My conscience, I think.
Your what?
My conscience told me.
It came through - Your conscience told you?
Yeah.
While you were -
While I was -
- in contact with the being, d’you mean, or when?
While the being was looking at me.
While it was looking at you, your conscience told you that. Had you been a person that thought a lot about what we’re doing to the Earth before that?
No. Only after this.
Only after this.
[cut]
Mum tucks me in sometimes.
She tucks you in. And do you go right to sleep or do you kind of stay awake thinking for a while?
I stay awake and I get scared with every single noise I hear.
And when you hear a noise, what do you imagine it is?
I think it's people coming into my house, wanting to steal me and steal all my toys and everything.
"Emma... saw a being at what she estimated to be a distance of three or four yards." [Mack, Passport to the Cosmos (1999), p. 280]
I never have, no.
[cut]
It was scaring myself.
Scary because you saw something yourself?
Yes. I saw a little object hovering. It was quite big actually, and then there was little ones all around it. And it looked as if they were changing spaceships.
[cut]
I saw this person and it had big eyes. That's all I saw about it. Big eyes and a black body.
[cut]
But I was looking straight into his eyes.
[cut]
[Emma draws face with big eyes] I didn’t see anything over there.
No nose, you didn’t see a nose?
No. My heart kind of went faster and then slower and then faster and then slower all at the same time.
Now was that - that was excitement?
Yeah, excitement and scariness.
And scary. And you said happy too?
Yeah.
Happy because -
Because… I saw something strange and something peculiar and something nobody had ever seen.
[cut]
[referencing her drawing] What was the effect to be looking at these eyes or have these eyes looking at you? What - how did that affect you?
Scary.
It was scary?
[cut]
The other man, his eyes looked at me as if [stares] uh, I want you. And things like that.
I want to what -
I want you.
I want you. I want you in what - like I want you to come with me? Or I -
Yeah. I want you to come with me. I want you to come.
Did you go with him, do you think?
[confused] No, only my eyes went with him. [laughs]
Your eyes went with him.
And my feeling.
And your feeling went with him. So was there a part of you that wanted to go with him?
Yeah.
That felt like drawn to go with him?
Yeah.
Okay, can you say what that felt like?
Again, scary and a little excited, and a little I shouldn’t go.
And yet, I want to go.
Yeah.
[cut]
He was just staring at me. The eyes didn't have any pupils or color. [Mack, Passport to the Cosmos (1999), p. 280]
[cut]
He was just staring and we like tried not to look at him, cuz he was quite scary.
What was scary about him?
His big eyes, I think.
[cut]
I think they want um people to know that we’re actually making harm on this world and we mustn’t get too technoledged.
What gave you that feeling?
I don’t know.
But it came through to you when you were with the strange being?
Yeah. When he was looking at me,
When he was looking at you.
[cut]
How did that get communicated to you?
I don’t know.
But somehow it did.
Yeah, it came through my head.
Through your head. Did it t- like through words or -?
My conscience, I think.
Your what?
My conscience told me.
It came through - Your conscience told you?
Yeah.
While you were -
While I was -
- in contact with the being, d’you mean, or when?
While the being was looking at me.
While it was looking at you, your conscience told you that. Had you been a person that thought a lot about what we’re doing to the Earth before that?
No. Only after this.
Only after this.
[cut]
Mum tucks me in sometimes.
She tucks you in. And do you go right to sleep or do you kind of stay awake thinking for a while?
I stay awake and I get scared with every single noise I hear.
And when you hear a noise, what do you imagine it is?
I think it's people coming into my house, wanting to steal me and steal all my toys and everything.
"Emma... saw a being at what she estimated to be a distance of three or four yards." [Mack, Passport to the Cosmos (1999), p. 280]
Fungai
NOTE: Fungai was named Francis by Cynthia Hind.
A man that looked like a regular man or different?
[shakes head] He was all black.
All black?
Yes. And his eyes were looking funny. They were making funny shapes and all that.
[While Fungai draws]
The eyes were like more pointed as they came in towards the center of the head, is that-?
Yes. More circular [fixes drawing to make eyes less pointy]. And this was all black in here. [coloring in the eyes]
Now you’ve made pupils. Did they actually have pupils?
Yes, the pupils were white like that.
You saw white in the center?
Yes, like that.
Was he nearer the silver object or was he far from it?
No, on top.
On top of the silver object?
Yes.
Okay. And um, did you look at him?
Yes.
Did he look at you?
Yes, and it gave me the creeps and I stopped looking at it.
Gave you the creeps. Actually in your drawing you showed him standing up, didn’t you?
Yes, I had to draw him standing up because I couldn’t draw him sitting.
[cut]
These eyes, did you look at them?
Yes
What feeling did that give you, when you looked in the eyes?
It made me shake a little.
Made you shake?
A terrifying feeling.
What made it terrifying?
The way he was looking at me.
How did he look at you?
Strangely like an old woman who hasn’t seen a kid before. He stares like this.
Try to just be in that feeling for a moment. Try to remember that terrifying feeling. Try to tell me what’s in the terror. See what you find in the terror. What it might be about.
He was making me all scared, my heart was now starting to pump faster, and it was making me all woozy.
Like you were going to faint?
So then I was looking at him, right? Then he was looking at me back. How could I just keep on looking at him? So I had to stop and I looked sidewards so he wouldn’t keep on making me feel faint.
But you kept looking?
Yes.
Why did you keep looking?
I don’t know, something just attracted me to look at him.
Something attracted you huh.
Yes.
[cut]
What do you imagine is his reason for visiting Earth? [cut] Fungai, what do you imagine is his reason for this anger?
Hmm, I think it’s about something that’s gonna happen.
Something that's gonna happen, like what?
Hmm… Pollution or something.
Pollution?
Yes
And how did he get that idea of pollution across to you?
[unsure] The way he was staring?
Somehow there was a message about pollution from the way he was staring?
Yes.
[cut]
How did that get communicated to you?
Had this feeling just popped up in my head.
Pollution?
A man that looked like a regular man or different?
[shakes head] He was all black.
All black?
Yes. And his eyes were looking funny. They were making funny shapes and all that.
[While Fungai draws]
The eyes were like more pointed as they came in towards the center of the head, is that-?
Yes. More circular [fixes drawing to make eyes less pointy]. And this was all black in here. [coloring in the eyes]
Now you’ve made pupils. Did they actually have pupils?
Yes, the pupils were white like that.
You saw white in the center?
Yes, like that.
Was he nearer the silver object or was he far from it?
No, on top.
On top of the silver object?
Yes.
Okay. And um, did you look at him?
Yes.
Did he look at you?
Yes, and it gave me the creeps and I stopped looking at it.
Gave you the creeps. Actually in your drawing you showed him standing up, didn’t you?
Yes, I had to draw him standing up because I couldn’t draw him sitting.
[cut]
These eyes, did you look at them?
Yes
What feeling did that give you, when you looked in the eyes?
It made me shake a little.
Made you shake?
A terrifying feeling.
What made it terrifying?
The way he was looking at me.
How did he look at you?
Strangely like an old woman who hasn’t seen a kid before. He stares like this.
Try to just be in that feeling for a moment. Try to remember that terrifying feeling. Try to tell me what’s in the terror. See what you find in the terror. What it might be about.
He was making me all scared, my heart was now starting to pump faster, and it was making me all woozy.
Like you were going to faint?
So then I was looking at him, right? Then he was looking at me back. How could I just keep on looking at him? So I had to stop and I looked sidewards so he wouldn’t keep on making me feel faint.
But you kept looking?
Yes.
Why did you keep looking?
I don’t know, something just attracted me to look at him.
Something attracted you huh.
Yes.
[cut]
What do you imagine is his reason for visiting Earth? [cut] Fungai, what do you imagine is his reason for this anger?
Hmm, I think it’s about something that’s gonna happen.
Something that's gonna happen, like what?
Hmm… Pollution or something.
Pollution?
Yes
And how did he get that idea of pollution across to you?
[unsure] The way he was staring?
Somehow there was a message about pollution from the way he was staring?
Yes.
[cut]
How did that get communicated to you?
Had this feeling just popped up in my head.
Pollution?
Kayleigh V
Did you see the eyes?
[Nods]
What did they look like?
They were going like that. [mimics]
Where was the pointy part? Was the pointy part in here or was the pointy part there?
Over here.
Up there. And what was the feeling when you looked at the eyes?
Um, it was scary.
Mm-hm. Scary why? What made it scary?
The eyes looked evil.
Evil? And what was evil about them? Say what you mean by evil.
[thinks a long time] It looked evil because it was just staring at me.
With what - Staring at you as if what? As if to do what? I know this is hard. I know it's hard. Try to - it's hard to put into words what you felt, I'm sure. [she nods]
As if it wanted to come and take us.
As if it wanted to come and take you. That was the feeling you got?
[Nods]
That it wanted you to go with it?
[Distracted, nods]
Did you feel like you wanted to go with it?
[Shakes head, no]
No. Did you feel - what was the effect on you when you felt it wanted to have you go with it?
I just walked away and I started crying.
[cut]
What did you say? What did you tell your mom?
I said mummy I saw an alien at school, and my mum never believed me.
Did that upset you?
Yeah, sometimes.
[Nods]
What did they look like?
They were going like that. [mimics]
Where was the pointy part? Was the pointy part in here or was the pointy part there?
Over here.
Up there. And what was the feeling when you looked at the eyes?
Um, it was scary.
Mm-hm. Scary why? What made it scary?
The eyes looked evil.
Evil? And what was evil about them? Say what you mean by evil.
[thinks a long time] It looked evil because it was just staring at me.
With what - Staring at you as if what? As if to do what? I know this is hard. I know it's hard. Try to - it's hard to put into words what you felt, I'm sure. [she nods]
As if it wanted to come and take us.
As if it wanted to come and take you. That was the feeling you got?
[Nods]
That it wanted you to go with it?
[Distracted, nods]
Did you feel like you wanted to go with it?
[Shakes head, no]
No. Did you feel - what was the effect on you when you felt it wanted to have you go with it?
I just walked away and I started crying.
[cut]
What did you say? What did you tell your mom?
I said mummy I saw an alien at school, and my mum never believed me.
Did that upset you?
Yeah, sometimes.
Olivia
No footage available but Olivia (9) is mentioned in Mack's 1999 book Passport to the Cosmos as one of the children he interviewed. It's possible this is a pseudonym for Oriana, who is seen briefly being interviewed alongside Kayleigh in The Phenomenon film. However, Oriana at the time did not report seeing any beings but only a "stick".
Mack reports Olivia said "it made her dizzy when she looked into a being's eyes." (p. 281)
Mack reports Olivia said "it made her dizzy when she looked into a being's eyes." (p. 281)
Mr Mackie
MACKIE: We actually tried to fob it off at first.
MACK: Yeah.
Um and we just carried on as normal. [cut] When you’ve been working with children as long as I have, you have to be very cautious as to how you interpret what they actually tell you.
[cut]
And their stories are consistent. There’s some details that are not consistent, like that boy saying the two different days [Stefan]. Do you think it’s possible that one imaginative child had a story and kind of stirred the rest of them?
That I don’t believe. I honestly believe they saw something. But for me to actually draw a conclusion as to what it is, I don’t think I could do that at this point in time.
How many of them reported seeing the craft?
In the region of about 60. More of them could have seen it, and are just too embarrassed to talk about it. We haven’t actually had the grade 1s and 2s involved, the 6- and 7-year-olds.
How long would you estimate the scene actually lasted?
It took over about 10 to 15 minutes.
Really, that long? Did they describe any other sensory experiences like smell or sound or anything of that kind?.
Nothing at all, actually. Honestly, I don’t think anybody’s actually asked them that question.
MACK: Yeah.
Um and we just carried on as normal. [cut] When you’ve been working with children as long as I have, you have to be very cautious as to how you interpret what they actually tell you.
[cut]
And their stories are consistent. There’s some details that are not consistent, like that boy saying the two different days [Stefan]. Do you think it’s possible that one imaginative child had a story and kind of stirred the rest of them?
That I don’t believe. I honestly believe they saw something. But for me to actually draw a conclusion as to what it is, I don’t think I could do that at this point in time.
How many of them reported seeing the craft?
In the region of about 60. More of them could have seen it, and are just too embarrassed to talk about it. We haven’t actually had the grade 1s and 2s involved, the 6- and 7-year-olds.
How long would you estimate the scene actually lasted?
It took over about 10 to 15 minutes.
Really, that long? Did they describe any other sensory experiences like smell or sound or anything of that kind?.
Nothing at all, actually. Honestly, I don’t think anybody’s actually asked them that question.
Teachers
MACK: So people who have these experiences are very serious about them. I think that generally speaking when something powerful, important, exciting, scary has happened, that it’s useful to talk about it, to have open discussion. And it doesn’t mean you have to impose a point of view. But it’s not a matter of what we believe. It’s what their experience is and how they find the adults around them being receptive to that experience. And I think that's probably one of the rock-bottom educational principles that whatever your personal point of view, politics, prejudices may be, is that give an opportunity for ideas and expression of feelings and thoughts to be openly communicated.
[cut]
MACKIE: The one thing I’ve told everybody is we are dealing with children here. Sometimes the imagination can get carried away with them.
[cut]
Zara de Veron (Teacher): I personally believe the children. They came running up here in such a panic. And I mean even if we had staged it, they could not have not have run all together like that. Even if we'd practiced it I don't know how many times, they came up here like a living snake. And they just came - we were in a staff meeting and we just heard the screaming, screaming, ahhhh! Then they were here, you know. And a child can’t make that up. Children know when other children are conning them. And they were like about a hundred of them, just came here.
Teacher 1: I was very skeptical in the beginning as well. I believed that they'd seen something, but I wasn't prepared to accept that it was anything supernatural or anything like that. But I think the consistency of what's been going on indicates that it was more than I was prepared to admit in the beginning.
Teacher 2: They didn't see anything. I think somebody created this make-believe story that they actually created. That's my feeling.
What do you think started the story?
Teacher 2: Since during that time there was talk about meteorites and all that. I suppose somebody created the story and they sort of thought maybe he had seen something.
Teacher 3 [to Teacher 2]: You think that the children's imaginations are getting carried away with them but I became convinced when I saw the drawings, because so many of the drawings were similar. And also when they wrote their stories in their storybooks. They definitely seemed genuine. Because they all wrote completely different stories but they had seen the same thing. And I think that's what convinced me because I think I was as skeptical as everybody else.
Teacher 4: It wasn’t just Ariel school. There were a lot of different occurrences that happened over probably that whole week. [cut] I'm still very skeptical about children because they can convince themselves of what they see and get excited amongst themselves.
JUDY BATES (DEPUTY HEAD): I live here at the school so I try not to think about it at all... I've had a lot of sleepless nights since it happened so I try to put it out of my mind.
What do you think about the reality aspect of it?
BATES: Seeing is believing. I don’t know. But then I’m also scared of the unknown, so it’s something that I block off because I’d rather get on with school.
Do you think the kids are telling the truth? Or do you think they kind of embellished it or imagined it?
BATES: I think they are. But I’d rather not think about it - again because now if I think about it, tonight I’ll have another sleepless night cuz I'm waiting for an alien to come through the walls.
LEAH HWACHA (Teacher): Some kids in my class are so frightened, I actually can see that. It must have affected them so much that they sort of imagine something will happen to them. They’re still young. You don’t know how to act and how to speak to them. You’re a bit careful.
MACKIE: If we’re gonna keep discussing this, the parent is going to be knocking on my door every single day. I don’t think you can generalize when it comes to something like this. You’ve got to be extremely careful which way the parent is going to jump. If he’s going to jump the wrong way, you’ve caused a problem. You’ve caused a problem. You’re not solving it.
You’re probably all aware of this caution that Colin is talking about.
[cut]
MACKIE: We had one child who was very upset by the whole thing. Unfortunately he’s not at the school anymore, he’s gone back to Canada. He was having sleepless nights. This was a 12, 13-year-old child. Basically the cause of that was his parents refused to discuss the situation with him. His parents were very religious and according to them, this sort of thing doesn’t happen.
[cut]
MACKIE: The one thing I’ve told everybody is we are dealing with children here. Sometimes the imagination can get carried away with them.
[cut]
Zara de Veron (Teacher): I personally believe the children. They came running up here in such a panic. And I mean even if we had staged it, they could not have not have run all together like that. Even if we'd practiced it I don't know how many times, they came up here like a living snake. And they just came - we were in a staff meeting and we just heard the screaming, screaming, ahhhh! Then they were here, you know. And a child can’t make that up. Children know when other children are conning them. And they were like about a hundred of them, just came here.
Teacher 1: I was very skeptical in the beginning as well. I believed that they'd seen something, but I wasn't prepared to accept that it was anything supernatural or anything like that. But I think the consistency of what's been going on indicates that it was more than I was prepared to admit in the beginning.
Teacher 2: They didn't see anything. I think somebody created this make-believe story that they actually created. That's my feeling.
What do you think started the story?
Teacher 2: Since during that time there was talk about meteorites and all that. I suppose somebody created the story and they sort of thought maybe he had seen something.
Teacher 3 [to Teacher 2]: You think that the children's imaginations are getting carried away with them but I became convinced when I saw the drawings, because so many of the drawings were similar. And also when they wrote their stories in their storybooks. They definitely seemed genuine. Because they all wrote completely different stories but they had seen the same thing. And I think that's what convinced me because I think I was as skeptical as everybody else.
Teacher 4: It wasn’t just Ariel school. There were a lot of different occurrences that happened over probably that whole week. [cut] I'm still very skeptical about children because they can convince themselves of what they see and get excited amongst themselves.
JUDY BATES (DEPUTY HEAD): I live here at the school so I try not to think about it at all... I've had a lot of sleepless nights since it happened so I try to put it out of my mind.
What do you think about the reality aspect of it?
BATES: Seeing is believing. I don’t know. But then I’m also scared of the unknown, so it’s something that I block off because I’d rather get on with school.
Do you think the kids are telling the truth? Or do you think they kind of embellished it or imagined it?
BATES: I think they are. But I’d rather not think about it - again because now if I think about it, tonight I’ll have another sleepless night cuz I'm waiting for an alien to come through the walls.
LEAH HWACHA (Teacher): Some kids in my class are so frightened, I actually can see that. It must have affected them so much that they sort of imagine something will happen to them. They’re still young. You don’t know how to act and how to speak to them. You’re a bit careful.
MACKIE: If we’re gonna keep discussing this, the parent is going to be knocking on my door every single day. I don’t think you can generalize when it comes to something like this. You’ve got to be extremely careful which way the parent is going to jump. If he’s going to jump the wrong way, you’ve caused a problem. You’ve caused a problem. You’re not solving it.
You’re probably all aware of this caution that Colin is talking about.
[cut]
MACKIE: We had one child who was very upset by the whole thing. Unfortunately he’s not at the school anymore, he’s gone back to Canada. He was having sleepless nights. This was a 12, 13-year-old child. Basically the cause of that was his parents refused to discuss the situation with him. His parents were very religious and according to them, this sort of thing doesn’t happen.
Sources
- Ariel Phenomenon film, 2022, by Randall Nickerson
- Encounters, episode 2 (2023), Netflix
- Experiencers documentary, 2004, by Stephane Allix
- Unexplained Mysteries, 2004, ep 25 (rehash of the Sightings episode with additional Mack footage)
- YouTube video with some additional Mack interview snippets
- John Mack Institute audio
- John Mack, Passport to the Cosmos (1999)
- Susan Michaels, Sightings: UFOs (1997), pp. 137-9 (Her quotes are inaccurate and misattributed, so I wasn't able to include them all.)
- Why Files, "The UFO Incident That Shocked Ariel School: Telepathic Extraterrestrials", Jul 27, 2023
(c) Charlie Wiser 2022
